What would you do?
- Thread starter Airdale
- Start date
jynxyjoe
Queso King
"BLOCKED"
:yeahthat:
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
I think in this scenario you have to go missed. Call me a wuss, but personally I would not want any part of those conditions (1200 rvr) unless I was ready to shoot a CAT II approach.
RANT
I got into this situation a few weeks ago actually, but maybe not quite as bad. Long story short a fog bank hit the airport when were about 30 miles out (reducing TDZ RVR to 1400), we whizzed through the CAT II monitored approach briefing on downwind and shot the approach.
Our monitored approach procedure has the FO flying coupled to the autopilot, so they alone are responsible for calling a missed approach if they don't hear the captain say "landing, I have the aircraft" before decision height. 100 ft above DH, the captain "goes heads up", removing himself from the instrument scan while searching for visual cues through the windshield. To me this is the ultimate act of faith in your fellow pilot. At those speeds and that close to the ground, I can't be looking outside very effectively if I have to worry about scanning the instruments too. I must trust that my FO is going to call the go around if we suddenly lose the signal, the autopilot goes into a funky mode, or he doesn't hear me say the magic words by DH.
It was a thin fog layer, so we could see the tip of the tower for most of the approach but never the ground, runway, or ALS. Complicating matters was the fact that runway was almost perfectly aligned with the sunrise (100 magnetic heading), rendering the approach lights virtually useless (washed out by the sun).
My FO, who came from a freight (C208) background, DIDN'T CALL MISSED after we got the "minimums, minimums" callout from the airplane and the RA dropped below 100.
Once we reached 100 on the RA, I sat there for a brief moment of contemplation before I spoke up and called the go around on my own (thank goodness for the aural warning unit). Of course by the time I had processed the thought of "hey he didn't call it, but we need to go missed" we had broken below the fog and could see the runway. At that point it was too late, I had already mentally comitted to the missed approach. Plus we were definitely out of position to land properly in the touchdown zone.
In the end we shot a quick missed. By the time we came back around the fog had started to dissapate and we landed successfully. I told my FO thanks for all the help, but don't be shy about calling the go around when we hit the minimums.
Moral of the story, just play it by the book, that way everyone is on the same page. If you're going to cheat the minimums, at least let the other guy know beforehand. I would like to know about it ahead of time so we can resolve the situation, rather than finding out at Decision height on a CAT II ILS. Maybe it's a little easier to cheat in a SAAB or 1900 when your going 100 knots or so but pushing 140 in an RJ the time from 100 ft to ground impact isn't long enough to d#ck around with IMHO.....
Later, over drinks, this FO informed me that there was "no way" he would've gone missed in those conditions in his caravan (which I can only assume wasn't even CAT II certified). I guess we can draw our own conclusions from that.
I don't post this to dig at freight guys, but I just hope we can recognize hazardous attitudes like this before they bite us in the ass. In the pax carrying world you have to remember that it's not only your butt on the line, but a whole bunch of other people are sitting behind you too. While this probably not the smartest thing to put out there on a public forum, I think it's worthwhile if anyone can learn something from this story.
/RANT
I've also had a situation coming in to a certain airport with triple paralells where approach would not grant my request for the runway with the best visibility, offering me either a runway with marginal vis or a hold at 3000 ft with an indefinite EFC.
So of course I continued for the runway with marginal vis (think it was 1900 rvr). I was not CAT II qualified at the time, and sure enough, on 7 or 8 mile final (just outside publisehd G/S intercept), RVR drops to 1600....go around....divert, sit on ground for 3 hours, good times.
RANT
I got into this situation a few weeks ago actually, but maybe not quite as bad. Long story short a fog bank hit the airport when were about 30 miles out (reducing TDZ RVR to 1400), we whizzed through the CAT II monitored approach briefing on downwind and shot the approach.
Our monitored approach procedure has the FO flying coupled to the autopilot, so they alone are responsible for calling a missed approach if they don't hear the captain say "landing, I have the aircraft" before decision height. 100 ft above DH, the captain "goes heads up", removing himself from the instrument scan while searching for visual cues through the windshield. To me this is the ultimate act of faith in your fellow pilot. At those speeds and that close to the ground, I can't be looking outside very effectively if I have to worry about scanning the instruments too. I must trust that my FO is going to call the go around if we suddenly lose the signal, the autopilot goes into a funky mode, or he doesn't hear me say the magic words by DH.
It was a thin fog layer, so we could see the tip of the tower for most of the approach but never the ground, runway, or ALS. Complicating matters was the fact that runway was almost perfectly aligned with the sunrise (100 magnetic heading), rendering the approach lights virtually useless (washed out by the sun).
My FO, who came from a freight (C208) background, DIDN'T CALL MISSED after we got the "minimums, minimums" callout from the airplane and the RA dropped below 100.
Once we reached 100 on the RA, I sat there for a brief moment of contemplation before I spoke up and called the go around on my own (thank goodness for the aural warning unit). Of course by the time I had processed the thought of "hey he didn't call it, but we need to go missed" we had broken below the fog and could see the runway. At that point it was too late, I had already mentally comitted to the missed approach. Plus we were definitely out of position to land properly in the touchdown zone.
In the end we shot a quick missed. By the time we came back around the fog had started to dissapate and we landed successfully. I told my FO thanks for all the help, but don't be shy about calling the go around when we hit the minimums.
Moral of the story, just play it by the book, that way everyone is on the same page. If you're going to cheat the minimums, at least let the other guy know beforehand. I would like to know about it ahead of time so we can resolve the situation, rather than finding out at Decision height on a CAT II ILS. Maybe it's a little easier to cheat in a SAAB or 1900 when your going 100 knots or so but pushing 140 in an RJ the time from 100 ft to ground impact isn't long enough to d#ck around with IMHO.....
Later, over drinks, this FO informed me that there was "no way" he would've gone missed in those conditions in his caravan (which I can only assume wasn't even CAT II certified). I guess we can draw our own conclusions from that.
I don't post this to dig at freight guys, but I just hope we can recognize hazardous attitudes like this before they bite us in the ass. In the pax carrying world you have to remember that it's not only your butt on the line, but a whole bunch of other people are sitting behind you too. While this probably not the smartest thing to put out there on a public forum, I think it's worthwhile if anyone can learn something from this story.
/RANT
I've also had a situation coming in to a certain airport with triple paralells where approach would not grant my request for the runway with the best visibility, offering me either a runway with marginal vis or a hold at 3000 ft with an indefinite EFC.
So of course I continued for the runway with marginal vis (think it was 1900 rvr). I was not CAT II qualified at the time, and sure enough, on 7 or 8 mile final (just outside publisehd G/S intercept), RVR drops to 1600....go around....divert, sit on ground for 3 hours, good times.
Confused a little about your story. According to your CAT II approach breif the FO eyes were supposed to be inside the whole time and he was only supposed to call a missed if you lost signal, autopilot acted weird, or you didn't say "the magic words" by DH. So when minimums is announced by the little computer you don't have to say something like "field not in sight"?
I'm really not sure what the pilots freight background has to do with anything either. If anything he's probably been in and around minimums a bunch so his comfort level down there is better then your 300 hour wonder kids that occupy that seat sometimes. A pilot that goes below minimums is an unsafe pilot no matter if he came from freight, flight instructing, or dual received.
As far as the speed he probably flew the approach faster in the C208.
What you have behind you has no bearing on your decision making at DH or at any point on an approach. Infact the only time what you have in the back should enter your mind is if the ride isn't smooth at altitude. If the fact that you have 50-100 people(depending on which RJ) or 1700 lbs of dog #### enters your mind when you have to be making a continue or missed decision then I believe your focus is being clouded.
*Also this isn't a freight vs. regional thing so the peanut gallery can have a seat again.
I'm really not sure what the pilots freight background has to do with anything either. If anything he's probably been in and around minimums a bunch so his comfort level down there is better then your 300 hour wonder kids that occupy that seat sometimes. A pilot that goes below minimums is an unsafe pilot no matter if he came from freight, flight instructing, or dual received.
As far as the speed he probably flew the approach faster in the C208.
What you have behind you has no bearing on your decision making at DH or at any point on an approach. Infact the only time what you have in the back should enter your mind is if the ride isn't smooth at altitude. If the fact that you have 50-100 people(depending on which RJ) or 1700 lbs of dog #### enters your mind when you have to be making a continue or missed decision then I believe your focus is being clouded.
*Also this isn't a freight vs. regional thing so the peanut gallery can have a seat again.
Bumblebee
Commodore
I know that @ 200' if I'm PM when PF calls minimums I say, approach lights continue. Then if I'm outside(PM), the next thing I would say is runway in sight. If I do not say that, then the PF calls missed @ 100' and were off.
The freight background part (I believe ) is that a person used to making decisions which only affect him/herself may have a habit pattern of taking things farther than those of us that have only been 121.
Personally, I'm not thinking about the passengers in the back when we're in the middle of an approach, but it is a part of my overall conditioning to think of them as far as comfort. As far as taking things too far, I don't go there, I am all about getting my own butt home at the end of the day, they're (literally) along for the ride.
Velocipede
New Member
Two Commandments of Commercial Aviation:
1. You get paid by the minute.
2. Never eat a crew meal in the dark.
So, considering the 1st Commandment, why chance it? Go around and try another approach or go to your alternate.
And as to the comment about not risking your life for $90k a year...You NEVER get paid enough to risk your life or the lives of your passengers. Remember the old saying:
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old,bold pilots.
1. You get paid by the minute.
2. Never eat a crew meal in the dark.
So, considering the 1st Commandment, why chance it? Go around and try another approach or go to your alternate.
And as to the comment about not risking your life for $90k a year...You NEVER get paid enough to risk your life or the lives of your passengers. Remember the old saying:
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old,bold pilots.
Alchemy
Well-Known Member
After the point where the captain looks outside, there is no callout by the captain other than "landing, I have the aircraft". If the FO doesn't hear those words by DH, he/she is supposed to call the go around.
The only relevance the FO's background had in this case would be the fact they told me later they never would have gone missed had it been in the caravan, implying to me that they intentionally hesitated on calling the missed approach.
Interesting. Thanks for the information.
30West
New Member
Ok, so if the WX is at mins, have your finger on the mic and if you start to hear a transmission that starts off in runway # RVR..step on him and keep the mic down til inside and say sorry stuck mic. Of course you should only do this within 1nm or so of the FAF. This way theres nothing on the CVR, either ATC or you telling the FO to do that for you.
Or you could just do the safe/legal thing and go missed like you should.