What would you do if the captain __________?

[cmill]

It's absolutely your place to question the guy with 20,000 hours sitting to your left. That's what the company pays you to do.

Ugh, I had an FO recently watch me bust a taxi clearance because he didn't care to speak up. We were told to hold short of an intersection, and being used to the usual clearance I drove right into it. He just sat there. I said "Wait, did they tell us to hold short?"

His response: "Yep." He'd seen the whole thing go down, knowingly, and didn't say a word to stop me.

What use is a pilot in the right seat if they just sit there logging time waiting for upgrade? None. Might as well fly single-pilot and save me the hassle.

Thats not the kind of decision im talking about questioning. Its one thing to question a blatant wrong move, but another to question a PIC decision. If you dont like where the captain is taking the plane, then speak up, but theres no need to make a public case about it. I was under the impression that there should be some discretion involved when it comes to these types of issues.

 

[seagull]

I was under the impression that there should be some discretion involved when it comes to these types of issues.

On some issues, yes, but not any of the ones presented by the OP in this thread.

 

[Nick]

Thats not the kind of decision im talking about questioning. Its one thing to question a blatant wrong move, but another to question a PIC decision. If you dont like where the captain is taking the plane, then speak up, but theres no need to make a public case about it. I was under the impression that there should be some discretion involved when it comes to these types of issues.

There absolutely is discretion for different issues, but others aren't supposed to allow for much discretion at all.

Off the top of my head, pilot's discretion:

- A non-rev or jumpseater who isn't exactly following dress-code to the letter (are they new and just don't know? Had they had some unusual thing happen in their travels? Did their luggage with proper clothing get stolen and this is the last flight out?)

- Denying the jumpseat to a -- well, actually, that's for another thread

- Upgrading a military person to first class (not a company policy, but someone returning from a year in Iraq to be home for two weeks before going back for another year often gets offered a first class seat if we have one)

- The cockpit door falls off at V1 and you let a flight attendant on the jumpseat (F/As are not allowed on the cockpit jumpseat on a revenue flight...but are there instances where it's appropriate?)

- A malfunction on a solid IFR day with CBs in the area calls for a diversion to the "nearest suitable airport." Well, there's an unfamiliar little class D airport 50 miles behind you. But the large class B hub airport with multiple fire truck stations you've been based at for years is 12 o'clock and 70 miles, and you've got an 80 knot tailwind. Does emergency authority allow for some discretion here?



No discretion:

- Being configured by 1000' AGL. Do you really want to be wondering when the guy or girl sitting next to you is going to call for landing flaps when you're expecting to break out at minimums (or not break out!) in about 90 seconds?

- Upon completing the weight and balance it is discovered that you are over MZFW by 600 pounds. The captain calls the flight attendant up..."Hey, we've got 18 half-weights back there today right?" (on a plane that holds just 76!)

- Letting a flight attendant into the cockpit via the side window after the cabin door is closed so that they can get home, even though they aren't authorized to sit on the jumpseat.


None of the things I just typed are a product of my imagination, a couple of them just aren't first-hand.

 

[cmill]

There absolutely is discretion for different issues, but others aren't supposed to allow for much discretion at all.

Off the top of my head, pilot's discretion:

- A non-rev or jumpseater who isn't exactly following dress-code to the letter (are they new and just don't know? Had they had some unusual thing happen in their travels? Did their luggage with proper clothing get stolen and this is the last flight out?)

- Denying the jumpseat to a -- well, actually, that's for another thread

- Upgrading a military person to first class (not a company policy, but someone returning from a year in Iraq to be home for two weeks before going back for another year often gets offered a first class seat if we have one)

- The cockpit door falls off at V1 and you let a flight attendant on the jumpseat (F/As are not allowed on the cockpit jumpseat on a revenue flight...but are there instances where it's appropriate?)

- A malfunction on a solid IFR day with CBs in the area calls for a diversion to the "nearest suitable airport." Well, there's an unfamiliar little class D airport 50 miles behind you. But the large class B hub airport with multiple fire truck stations you've been based at for years is 12 o'clock and 70 miles, and you've got an 80 knot tailwind. Does emergency authority allow for some discretion here?



No discretion:

- Being configured by 1000' AGL. Do you really want to be wondering when the guy or girl sitting next to you is going to call for landing flaps when you're expecting to break out at minimums (or not break out!) in about 90 seconds?

- Upon completing the weight and balance it is discovered that you are over MZFW by 600 pounds. The captain calls the flight attendant up..."Hey, we've got 18 half-weights back there today right?" (on a plane that holds just 76!)

- Letting a flight attendant into the cockpit via the side window after the cabin door is closed so that they can get home, even though they aren't authorized to sit on the jumpseat.


None of the things I just typed are a product of my imagination, a couple of them just aren't first-hand.

If those are your most dangerous situations, or something you fret over, then you lead a very sedentary lifestyle. Like i said, theres the 121 world, and the real world. Most of the time it doesn't revolve around regs.

 

[7700]

It's everyone's favorite interview question; the WWYD.

What would you do if windshear is occuring and the captain decides to land anyway?

WWYD if there's a cell at the end of the runway and the captan decides to land?

WWYD if the captain flies an unstabilized approach?

WWYD if someone told you they saw your captain in the bar 7 hours before the flight?

WWYD if you're a new FO and the captain told you not to read the checklists or follow company procedures?

#1: Make a reservation at the local 99's because we're on short final

#2: Reinforce his decision and tell him it's not as close as it looks

#3: I've flown many unstabilized approaches and i'm still alive

#4: I'd tell him that was about the same time I was throwing up in the bathroom because I drank too much

#5: I can fly a 172 without a checklist, don't see the problem flying another plane without a checklist

 

[Nick]

If those are your most dangerous situations, or something you fret over, then you lead a very sedentary lifestyle.

If you think I lead a sedentary lifestyle you are out of your mind.

How did my lifestyle even get into this thread?

* * *​

I was thinking up some examples of things where there's either pilot's discretion, or not.

I never said any of them were "my most dangerous situations" or things that I "fret over." I said nothing of the sort!

Like i said, theres the 121 world, and the real world. Most of the time it doesn't revolve around regs.

The 121 world is about as real as it gets, and FAA inspectors will show you how it DOES revolve around the regs, every flight.

 

[jynxyjoe]

It's everyone's favorite interview question; the WWYD.

What would you do if windshear is occuring and the captain decides to land anyway?

WWYD if there's a cell at the end of the runway and the captan decides to land?

WWYD if the captain flies an unstabilized approach?

WWYD if someone told you they saw your captain in the bar 7 hours before the flight?

WWYD if you're a new FO and the captain told you not to read the checklists or follow company procedures?

Fortunately, any situation I've ever encountered like this (not many) was resolved simply by bringing the matter to the guy's attention and being assertive (but respectful), as we generally don't have "cowboy" pilots with a total disregard for safety. With that said, what would YOU do?

1. If it's his leg I'm probably asleep.
2. see #1
3. say, "God you suck."... go back to sleep
4. (assuming I didn't have my ipod buds in my ear) tell them, "Yeah I ended up scoring early with one of the patrons, he's a real wingman my captain!"
5. If it's his leg I'm asleep anyway.

If I am awake:
1-3 I would wrest controls from him, beat him with the backside of the crash axe, scream like a hero as I preformed the go around
4-5 Fire the captain on the spot, rip off his bars, I'd do all that after pausing the Ipod ofc

 

[jynxyjoe]

Hey, I don't have a FAR/AIM anymore. It's 8 inches bottle to throttle right?

 

[Avalon781ML]

It's everyone's favorite interview question; the WWYD.

What would you do if windshear is occuring and the captain decides to land anyway? Are we in the flare or 5 NM out? If we are in the flare I would continue and get it on the ground... if we are 5 out we need to go elsewhere.

WWYD if there's a cell at the end of the runway and the captan decides to land? Same as number 1.

WWYD if the captain flies an unstabilized approach? Unstabilized how and where are we... if we are 5 out there is plenty of time and altitude to correct... if we are 200 ft I will call for a go around.

WWYD if someone told you they saw your captain in the bar 7 hours before the flight? They could be drinking a coke and not booze.... so I would simply ask the Captain in the AM what the deal was.... if they balk or spit out some weird BS I would ask them to call in sick and level with me... I can only help them if they are honest with me.

WWYD if you're a new FO and the captain told you not to read the checklists or follow company procedures? We would go have a chat with the CP about these new procedures they didn't teach me in ground/sim.

I have run into a few of these cases in my short time at my airline and only once has a CA tried to justify himself. The other times it was simply a misunderstanding or something they didn't notice themselves... just cause its legal or barely within limits doesn't make it safe.

 

[killbilly]

1. If it's his leg I'm probably asleep.
2. see #1
3. say, "God you suck."... go back to sleep
4. (assuming I didn't have my ipod buds in my ear) tell them, "Yeah I ended up scoring early with one of the patrons, he's a real wingman my captain!"
5. If it's his leg I'm asleep anyway.

If I am awake:
1-3 I would wrest controls from him, beat him with the backside of the crash axe, scream like a hero as I preformed the go around
4-5 Fire the captain on the spot, rip off his bars, I'd do all that after pausing the Ipod ofc

This made me laugh out loud today. Thanks for this.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Are these answers serious?

Insofar as I was with child to see how long it took for some finger-wagger to show up and lay his member on the table, they were serious. Vis a vis "serious communication", I just sort of chortled to myself What's "a cell", how "unstabilized"? Is it the last leg? Of COURSE you're a 30 year Captain at a muckity muck corporation...if you weren't, you wouldn't imagine that it's outside the realm of possibility in your reality that you'd have to make some compromises in order to keep your job. I'd venture to guess that whatever your past jobs, you voted to let the regional swine swing the last time "one list" came up for consideration. No? Really?

It was a question designed to elicit opinions to look down on. I just provided what you were all-too-predictably looking for. Being a cliche is more of a laugh-at-you thing than a laugh-with-you one. Pray consider

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

It's absolutely
Ugh, I had an FO recently watch me bust a taxi clearance because he didn't care to speak up. We were told to hold short of an intersection, and being used to the usual clearance I drove right into it. He just sat there. I said "Wait, did they tell us to hold short?"

His response: "Yep." He'd seen the whole thing go down, knowingly, and didn't say a word to stop me.

What use is a pilot in the right seat if they just sit there logging time waiting for upgrade? None. Might as well fly single-pilot and save me the hassle.

dude, it's his upgrade spot when you get busted

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

How much windshear are we talking about here? The +5/10 knot gain/loss we experience every day or the stuff you see in the simulator which causes you to crash unless you firewall the throttles?

 

[seagull]

Insofar as I was with child to see how long it took for some finger-wagger to show up and lay his member on the table, they were serious. Vis a vis "serious communication", I just sort of chortled to myself What's "a cell", how "unstabilized"? Is it the last leg? Of COURSE you're a 30 year Captain at a muckity muck corporation...if you weren't, you wouldn't imagine that it's outside the realm of possibility in your reality that you'd have to make some compromises in order to keep your job. I'd venture to guess that whatever your past jobs, you voted to let the regional swine swing the last time "one list" came up for consideration. No? Really?

It was a question designed to elicit opinions to look down on. I just provided what you were all-too-predictably looking for. Being a cliche is more of a laugh-at-you thing than a laugh-with-you one. Pray consider

Your response is completely incoherent. You seem, however, to be implying that I can't see the "real world" somehow. Guess again. Of course I know that some people make compromises. That does not make that right. I really do not care who you work for. Further, if you feel you need to compromise in the way described, then you should be ALL FOR having cockpit communication recordings saved permanently so they can be used as your defense if you had to stand up to some • captain that was pulling the sort of crap talked about here.

Of course, the other possibility is that you are one of those capt's and don't want to be found out!

For the record, I always did support "one list", and that has been one of my harshest criticisms of ALPA over the years. Incredibly stupid, short sighted decision not to put the regionals on the same seniority list at the outset. I WAS arguing for that in the late 80s (when it all came up, it was not an issue prior to that) and I did let all my reps know, even spoke to Babbit about it at the time.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Your response is completely incoherent.

Ok, more coherently (or at least concisely):

I don't think the questions are meant to be taken seriously, or if they are, the OP is being...optimistic. Even the dimmest bulb doesn't get past their discovery flight without learning that there's an extremely humorless political orthodoxy in aviation concerning "safety issues". In the case of a question for which there is a "book answer" (all of those posted above), you responses are going to be of two types. 1) Orthodox and 2) Humorous. There really isn't room or climate for 3) Serious. So, you see, in my judgement, it's pragmatically impossible for me to say whether I'm serious in my responses or not...

Oh, and good for you on the union stuff. Check Plus.

 

[dasleben]

dude, it's his upgrade spot when you get busted

That bastard! Can't trust these guys for a second.

 

[seagull]

Ok, more coherently (or at least concisely):

I don't think the questions are meant to be taken seriously, or if they are, the OP is being...optimistic. Even the dimmest bulb doesn't get past their discovery flight without learning that there's an extremely humorless political orthodoxy in aviation concerning "safety issues". In the case of a question for which there is a "book answer" (all of those posted above), you responses are going to be of two types. 1) Orthodox and 2) Humorous. There really isn't room or climate for 3) Serious. So, you see, in my judgement, it's pragmatically impossible for me to say whether I'm serious in my responses or not...

Oh, and good for you on the union stuff. Check Plus.

OK, let me rephrase this to ensure we're on the same page.

You are saying that there is the politically correct "orthodox" answer, which is what was initially posted as a response. Those are the ways you are "expected" to answer on an interview.

The second is just a humorous response, no elaboration needed.

Now the third is the one I'm curious about. By "serious", I am reading that you believe that the "orthodox" answer, which "Nick" stated in the first reply, is not an accurate portrayal, and that in the "real world" people don't do that?

If that is the case, I am interested in understanding the true "why" to that and, if it is happening, what are the real solutions that can be implemented to prevent an future accident. I am serious, because doing something contrary to what Nick wrote will lead to accidents in the future just as assuredly as such actions have in the past.

We often like to talk about what DID happen, but do not think much about how to truly prevent the future events. We put a bandaide on what superficially looked to be the problem and move on (this is the industry as a whole, including FAA, airlines, ALPA, etc.), despite a lot of rhetoric to the contrary. SMS is designed to help identify these things, and, of course, FOQA, ASAP, LOSA, etc, are the primary tools, but we are not closing the loop if we are not actually DOING anything about the "serious" answer (assuming I am reading you correctly here).

I am interested in the solutions, preventing future accidents, not just talking about the "real world". If the "real world" is such that f/o's are not speaking up appropriately, why is that, and, more importantly, what do we do about it?

 

[Boris Badenov]

Now the third is the one I'm curious about. By "serious", I am reading that you believe that the "orthodox" answer, which "Nick" stated in the first reply, is not an accurate portrayal, and that in the "real world" people don't do that?

If that is the case, I am interested in understanding the true "why" to that and, if it is happening, what are the real solutions that can be implemented to prevent an future accident. I am serious, because doing something contrary to what Nick wrote will lead to accidents in the future just as assuredly as such actions have in the past.

Now we're getting somewhere. Part of it is being lazy or complacent on the part of pilots, sure. And I don't mean to minimize that. But consider...for my tiny little toy jet, if one were to follow the Simuflite approved checklist to the letter, it would take something on the order of half an hour to preflight the airplane. Just the preflight. Programming the FMS, getting weather, filing, etc are all extra. That's ludicrous. Someone is afraid of getting sued, so checklists and procedures get longer and longer. Plus supplements. Plus service bulletins. Etc etc etc. And what is the end result of all of this? It perpetuates disrespect for the rules and procedures. How can you take seriously a system that treats every takeoff like a shuttle launch? Who will respect such a ludicrously transparent, giant CYA?

And it's a shame that we can't take it seriously, because a lot of the rules and procedures are, as you point out, written in blood.

IMHO, there needs to be a massive culling of rote memorization and "checklist culture" (note here that I am not saying checklists are bad...just that they should be shorter and more concise) and focus on fundamentals. "Where are we, what do we do next, why's it doing that?" If you can answer those, you're gonna be ok.

 

[zmiller4]

But consider...for my tiny little toy jet, if one were to follow the Simuflite approved checklist to the letter, it would take something on the order of half an hour to preflight the airplane. Just the preflight. Programming the FMS, getting weather, filing, etc are all extra. That's ludicrous. Someone is afraid of getting sued, so checklists and procedures get longer and longer. Plus supplements. Plus service bulletins. Etc etc etc. And what is the end result of all of this? It perpetuates disrespect for the rules and procedures. How can you take seriously a system that treats every takeoff like a shuttle launch? Who will respect such a ludicrously transparent, giant CYA?

I'm sorry that's been your experience. If that's honestly the case at your company, I'd strongly recommend trying to change the procedures that put what appears to be an undue burden on the pilots because it *shouldn't* be that difficult or time-consuming. Maybe this is the reason you and some other non-121 pilots in this thread see a disconnect between "the way it's supposed to be done" and the "real world".

At the two airlines I've worked for it's not that difficult at all. I've flown with a lot of very thorough check airman recently, and with both of us doing everything our SOP requires (and many times more) it's common be done with checklists and everything else well before the passengers are on. If we're not, we just take our time and do it right. There might be an item or two that doesn't really need to be there (Mesa's pre-start calls for personal electronic devices to be "off"), but overall there's not a lot of extraneous fluff at all.

 

[seagull]

Have to agree with Zmiller here, overall. I have seen various iterations of checklists, some way long, some much better. Ideally, the checklist and procedures should balance the work. You get a lot done in the chocks or enroute so you have less to distract you while in the critical phases of flight.

I recall a time when I was at a previous company, a small commuter airline (didn't call them regional, although this would have been a regional today, with about 600 pilots). I was a check airman. The checklist was a bit long, particularly with a lot of items "below the line" when cleared into position or takeoff. I happened to be flying with an f/o from another crewbase, (a base known for non-standard procedures) and the f/o informed me on taxi out that there was "too much to do on the checklist, so we could not accept an immediate takeoff" and still accomplish it all. Well, as a check airman, I flew the right seat regularly, knew exactly what was on the checklist, and knew that you COULD get it all done easily enough. I had to inform her that we would do the complete checklist, and would accept an immediate if offered, and we would not push the throttles up until we had completed it all. We did exactly that and it worked out fine. She was surprised, but everyone in that crew base was apparently never doing it, and just assumed they couldn't!

That said, it is entirely possible that the checklist is too busy. What is the solution? The answer is that the solution is the same as going into an airport with a ton of NOTAMs (several major airports domestically are pretty bad, although some international locations blow them away with 50 pages of notams, sometimes!). So, do we just skip them so we can have an on time departure? Not on my jet. We ensure we go through them, line by line before departure. If that means a delay, then we are delayed. Period.

Maybe, just maybe, if most pilots would do that, the government just might fix it. Just might take a few congress-critters getting delayed and complaining about it before FAA fixes these issues. I know FAA is working on trying to fix the NOTAM system, but IMO it needs a lot more than they are trying to do, and, of course, they have no influence on the rest of the world.

Anyway, the key is, we need to do things right. If the checklist is too long, you still need to follow it. The company might have incentive to fix it if they see the delays as a consequence. I realize that the company has created the problem (or, perhaps, as you infer, the legal climate we exist in), but that doesn't change the bottom line. We are at the point of the spear. In the end, it's us that pays the ultimate price. We are paid to manage risk and make the hard calls. FAA, ALPA and the industry, actually expects that. We should not be the weak link.