What to do when controllers don't respond?

[SJM]

Here is a summary of events that took place. I planned a cross country that would take me straight through the heart of New York's class B. I was unsure how the controllers would respond to my attempt to fly a 152 only miles from EWR, JFK, and LGA, so I called them on a land line before taking off, and they gave me a frequency on which to contact New York Appch, and they would advise me on altitude, etc. Easy.

So I climb out of my base airport, contact approach and the controller advises me to level out at XXXX feet, and gives me another frequency to contact. I switch over, and make my transmission several times to no avail. I then switch back to the previous freq, and double check with him that I got the correct freq. He confirms. I switch over again, but again, I get no response. Back to the original freq. Now they're not answering either. I don't hear any transmissions at all. At this point I am over LDJ and Manhattan is coming up on the left in front of me. Mid-size jets are maneuvering right under me.

Now I'm uncomfortable, flipping throuhg the AFD and calling up any freq for New York app/dep. I hear some one-sided transmissions, but no one responds to my calls. At this point I make a quick 180 and retrace my steps through B airspace staying at XXXX feet. I contact McGuire approach and they hear me fine, so I shoot down to south Jersey to complete the cross country. The rest of my flight was just like any other flight, I was able to communicate with everyone without any issues.

I'm not sure what exactly went wrong here but it was pretty frustrating. I only had this happen once before when the tower at a class D airport wasn't responding and I decided not to land there. Have any of you been in a similar situation? What would you have done? Would it have been wrong to continue through B in the scenario above? (I was cleared into B, given a squawk code, and they knew my destination)

visual aid : http://skyvector.com/#44-15-3-2444-3129

 

[Greg01]

For me, personally, I would've kept on going. If I had the Bravo clearance and ATC knew exactly what I was doing, I wouldn't want to surprise them and change all of a sudden. Also, I would've tried a couple of different frequencies if I couldn't raise a controller after multiple attempts. It is possible that they were on the landline.

If then you're still not raising anyone and you can't raise anyone on the original frequency, try a different approach frequency, and try an establish with them that you're trying to raise someone on frequency 1xx.xx...maybe they can give a shout over the landline to that guy.

Just my $0.02

 

[sorrygottarunway]

if I remember correctly, you could also try 121.50. Many airliners and control centers monitor that, and they may be able to have you try out different frequencies.

 

[MikeOH58]

I would adhere to my last clearance. Altitude/heading or altitude/on course. If you had two radio's, continue to monitor freq, and try others...I don't think i'd want to be maneuvering in the Bravo, especially without TCAS around EWR/LGA/TEB/JFK/HPN.

As for being concerned about flying a cessna near the majors airports?.....No need to be. NY controllers can be extremely accommodating if you show them you know what you are doing, and they will generally give you whatever you request.

 

[TFaudree_ERAU]

File an ASRS report...RIGHT NOW (and then bookmark that page). If its not too late, I'd edit your post to make it a little more vague. Rule number one when it comes to things like this is don't call yourself out until you have covered your butt. They "could" possibly ding you for not monitoring/calling 121.5. You made an unexpected maneuver that put you back into the situation that made you uncomfortable the first time. If it made you uncomfortable, imagine how it made the controller feel when you did something unexpected.

You didn't mention the time frame in which all of this occured; specifically the part about how long you waited for ATC to answer your calls. I have been in cases that it takes a minute or two to be answered. This could be due to any number of things. When controllers do shift changes, it can take a minute or two for the relieving controller to be briefed on the current situation by the controller being relieved. Have patience. If you don't hear back after a minute or two, make a blind transmission to "any other aircraft on the frequency" to see if they hear you. If they do, then its a good chance that ATC is just tied up with other duties at the moment.

My recommendation for the future, IF you can't re-establish contact, would be to continue on the last assigned heading and altitude. If you need to make a slight adjustment to your course to exit the airspace as quickly as possible, do it. Otherwise, stay on the heading until you can either clear the airspace or get in touch with someone. DON'T reverse course, especially not back into congested airspace. You wouldn't reverse course to head back into icing or IFR conditions if you inadvertantly encountered them, would you? Why do it in this case? Your flight path is much more predictable if you just continue on your last assigned heading. When you lose comms with ATC, predictable is what makes everyone happy. Thats why the lost communcation procedures for IFR flights are spelled out right in the FARs; so that ATC can predict what you will be doing and plan accordingly. Now, if there is restricted airspace on your course, obviously, go around it. Use your best judgement in a case like that.

Lastly, squawk 7600 and monitor 121.5 if all else fails. This ensures ATC realizes your predicament and will move traffic out of your way. First, make a transmission on 121.5 along the lines of "New York Approach, Cessna 12345, calling on guard." Wait for a reply and then tell them your situation. If that doesn't work, ask for any aircraft on the frequency to assist. If that doesn't work, keep making "blind" transmissions in the hope that the transmissions are making it to ATC, but you just can't hear them back.

And as mentioned above; as soon as you get on the ground, FILE AN ASRS REPORT. Even if it means kicking some corporate hot shot off the computer. Tell them its urgent. Ask to use an FBO employee's computer if its your only option. An ASRS report is your way of anonomously telling the FAA that you realize you possibly made a mistake and that you are critiquing yourself as to not allow it to happen again.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, however. If anything was going to come of it, you'd have heard about it when you got back in touch with ATC, or very shortly thereafter.

 

[rjmore]

File an ASRS report...RIGHT NOW (and then bookmark that page). If its not too late, I'd edit your post to make it a little more vague. Rule number one when it comes to things like this is don't call yourself out until you have covered your butt. They "could" possibly ding you for not monitoring/calling 121.5. You made an unexpected maneuver that put you back into the situation that made you uncomfortable the first time. If it made you uncomfortable, imagine how it made the controller feel when you did something unexpected.

You didn't mention the time frame in which all of this occured; specifically the part about how long you waited for ATC to answer your calls. I have been in cases that it takes a minute or two to be answered. This could be due to any number of things. When controllers do shift changes, it can take a minute or two for the relieving controller to be briefed on the current situation by the controller being relieved. Have patience. If you don't hear back after a minute or two, make a blind transmission to "any other aircraft on the frequency" to see if they hear you. If they do, then its a good chance that ATC is just tied up with other duties at the moment.

My recommendation for the future, IF you can't re-establish contact, would be to continue on the last assigned heading and altitude. If you need to make a slight adjustment to your course to exit the airspace as quickly as possible, do it. Otherwise, stay on the heading until you can either clear the airspace or get in touch with someone. DON'T reverse course, especially not back into congested airspace. You wouldn't reverse course to head back into icing or IFR conditions if you inadvertantly encountered them, would you? Why do it in this case? Your flight path is much more predictable if you just continue on your last assigned heading. When you lose comms with ATC, predictable is what makes everyone happy. Thats why the lost communcation procedures for IFR flights are spelled out right in the FARs; so that ATC can predict what you will be doing and plan accordingly. Now, if there is restricted airspace on your course, obviously, go around it. Use your best judgement in a case like that.

Lastly, squawk 7600 and monitor 121.5 if all else fails. This ensures ATC realizes your predicament and will move traffic out of your way. First, make a transmission on 121.5 along the lines of "New York Approach, Cessna 12345, calling on guard." Wait for a reply and then tell them your situation. If that doesn't work, ask for any aircraft on the frequency to assist. If that doesn't work, keep making "blind" transmissions in the hope that the transmissions are making it to ATC, but you just can't hear them back.

And as mentioned above; as soon as you get on the ground, FILE AN ASRS REPORT. Even if it means kicking some corporate hot shot off the computer. Tell them its urgent. Ask to use an FBO employee's computer if its your only option. An ASRS report is your way of anonomously telling the FAA that you realize you possibly made a mistake and that you are critiquing yourself as to not allow it to happen again.

I wouldn't sweat it too much, however. If anything was going to come of it, you'd have heard about it when you got back in touch with ATC, or very shortly thereafter.

All excellent advice. Most airliners in the area will be monitoring 121.5 and would be able to get a freq for you. ATC is also monitoring it so they may answer you directly. Fill out the report to cover yourself but I think you did alright for the situation.

 

[dc3flyer]

I might have just went back to the previous frequency and told the controller you were not getting a response. It would have beaten just shooting through the airspace when they didn't know what you were doing.

It sounds like you may not have caused any big problems, but the ASRS might not be a bad thing to do, just to cover your rear.

 

[CN94559]

I had this happen to me a few weeks ago when I was flying through the DFW bravo. I fly out of an airport right inside the 40 ring and I was heading into the bravo, right across the approach paths for DFW and DAL so needless to say its very very busy. I was on our dep freq outta my airport, got cleared through the bravo, squwak code, and they knew my destination, after this I was told to switch to xxx.xx so I did. made my call, waited a min or two, no transmissions from ATC or other planes. made another call, same drill, no response. went back to the dep freq I knew people would be on, called him back up and told him the situation (quickly as he was hella busy) confirmed the freq and everything, he told me to try again, did this to no avial. went back over to the freq I had gotten response from and he just told me to stay with him. after about 5 or so mins he told me to call back on that other freq and this time he was positive that somebody would answer me, as the guy was sitting right next to him and if he didnt he'd hit him for me my point in telling this whole story was, throughout this whole time I continued on my heading and assignment, cause I was afraid to move as I would mess something up and that would cause me, a student pilot, flying through a bravo (legally my instructor checked me out) to mess up some big jet and that wouldnt end well for me.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Eh, don't say anything. When he comes back on the radio to talk to you just wait, let him transmit a few times, and then reply "Sorry, I was on a land line, say again whoever was calling (insert tail #)"

 

[higney85]

Eh, don't say anything. When he comes back on the radio to talk to you just wait, let him transmit a few times, and then reply "Sorry, I was on a land line, say again whoever was calling (insert tail #)"

I have said this once and only once when this controller kept screwing up our call signs.

"Center, you calling FLG2189?, I was trying to bowl on my Iphone, please say again!". ATC said with a chuckle "Geez, they really are addictive huh? Try contacting ATL on 1XX.XX, I never realized your version of the landline was bowling, I guess we are behind the times!" My CA was rolling for a solid 5 mins that ATC and I just carried on a convo about bowling at cruise.



Of course I wasn't bowling, but then again the landline excuse has become old!



To the OP- an ident normally gets their attention IF you are on the correct freq. Not sure if its anything close to official but it works every once in a while when needed. Only thing better for a response is a female sitting next to you giving ATC a call- for some reason they always get a reply when my calls fall on deaf ears.

 

[poser765]

Story of my own. Was flying through the DFW class B, and ft worth center handed me off to app on a different freq then what was listed in the afd for the apt i was going to. Ok, I figured they knew more than I did. Switched over and Dude was busy! He was swamped giving vectors to some big jets. So I called up in my 152 to no avail. Made a few calls over 5 minutes and nothing. Switched back to center and they told me the frequency was right.

So back I went calling up for about 5 minutes when the line calmed down. Finally got a "hold on." About another five minutes pass then I get a "aircraft calling what do you want?" So i tell him and he informs me I am on the wrong freq. He gives me the one I should be on.

Low and Behold...it was the frequency that I got out of the AFD.

 

[trafficinsight]

I had one once that really rubbed me the wrong way. I departed Gillespie field in El Cajon headed north back to Reid Hillview and I had asked tower for flight following, like they asked me to do in the ATIS.

After takeoff tower switched me to SoCal. I tried a couple of times to check in with SoCal only to be met with silence, so I switched back to tower and confirmed the frequency and asked for a radio check, everything seemed fine so I switched back and tried a couple more times.

Silence.

Tried Comm 2, silence.

waited a few and tried again thinking maybe the distance covered would make a difference. Nothing.

Finally, as I was nearing the pendleton restricted areas and had to make a decision as to whether to proceed or swing around them I tried one... last... time.

What did I get?

"Cessna XXXXX. I've heard all of your transmissions."

And nothing else.



Gee, thanks... I think?

So I swing wide around Pendleton head north and call up the frequency on the chart for the bravo transition through L.A. and get a controller who is fast, friendly and efficient.

WTF?

 

[VATechPilot]

I had one once that really rubbed me the wrong way. I departed Gillespie field in El Cajon headed north back to Reid Hillview and I had asked tower for flight following, like they asked me to do in the ATIS.

After takeoff tower switched me to SoCal. I tried a couple of times to check in with SoCal only to be met with silence, so I switched back to tower and confirmed the frequency and asked for a radio check, everything seemed fine so I switched back and tried a couple more times.

Silence.

Tried Comm 2, silence.

waited a few and tried again thinking maybe the distance covered would make a difference. Nothing.

Finally, as I was nearing the pendleton restricted areas and had to make a decision as to whether to proceed or swing around them I tried one... last... time.

What did I get?

"Cessna XXXXX. I've heard all of your transmissions."

And nothing else.



Gee, thanks... I think?

So I swing wide around Pendleton head north and call up the frequency on the chart for the bravo transition through L.A. and get a controller who is fast, friendly and efficient.

WTF?

Wow..what a [insert name].

 

[SteveC]

I had one once that really rubbed me the wrong way. I departed Gillespie field in El Cajon headed north back to Reid Hillview and I had asked tower for flight following, like they asked me to do in the ATIS.

After takeoff tower switched me to SoCal. I tried a couple of times to check in with SoCal only to be met with silence, so I switched back to tower and confirmed the frequency and asked for a radio check, everything seemed fine so I switched back and tried a couple more times.

Silence.

Tried Comm 2, silence.

waited a few and tried again thinking maybe the distance covered would make a difference. Nothing.

Finally, as I was nearing the pendleton restricted areas and had to make a decision as to whether to proceed or swing around them I tried one... last... time.

What did I get?

"Cessna XXXXX. I've heard all of your transmissions."

And nothing else.



Gee, thanks... I think?

So I swing wide around Pendleton head north and call up the frequency on the chart for the bravo transition through L.A. and get a controller who is fast, friendly and efficient.

WTF?

Sometimes it happens that they can hear you (and are responding to all of your calls) but you can't hear them. Depends upon altitude, position, and equipment anomalies (especially squelch adjustment!), but it's not all that rare. Usually after you travel to a different location you will get both sides of the conversation going again. If there is something important going on sometimes ATC will relay messages to you through a nearby aircraft. Often times, though, they know that you'll be able to hear them again in a few minutes so they just wait it out. Maybe that's what happened with you (and the OP too). It happens more at low altitudes, but I've seen it in the flight levels as well.

One way to tell if that is happening is to listen on the frequency for a few minutes. It becomes obvious what is happening when you can hear other aircraft calling, and apparently being responded to, but you don't hear ATC. If you REALLY think you need to talk to ATC about something RIGHT NOW, just listen up for an aircraft on freq, note their call sign, then give them a call and ask them to relay for you.

Often times turning down the squelch on your radio will let you hear their transmission, or switching radios (if you have more than one). It is not unusual to have one radio antenna located on top of the airframe while the other is located on the bottom, and they may respond differently depending upon which is being used. This can be demonstrated sometimes by switching radios on the ground if one radio isn't working too well.

As far as the "WTF", I'd say there was a good chance that he was just letting you know that his end was working fine, and that your transmitter was working OK, but that you need to figure out why you couldn't hear him. Much easier for him to simply let you know the facts rather than try to walk you through figuring out the problem. What would you expect him to do differently?

"N1234X, I could hear you fine but you weren't responding to my calls. Did you turn your squelch down/off? Did you switch radios? Could you hear other aircraft on freq but not me?"

 

[kellwolf]

As far as the "WTF", I'd say there was a good chance that he was just letting you know that his end was working fine, and that your transmitter was working OK, but that you need to figure out why you couldn't hear him. Much easier for him to simply let you know the facts rather than try to walk you through figuring out the problem. What would you expect him to do differently?

"N1234X, I could hear you fine but you weren't responding to my calls. Did you turn your squelch down/off? Did you switch radios? Could you hear other aircraft on freq but not me?"

Or the guy could have siad "N134X, unable flight following at this time, squawk VFR. Remain clear." That woulda been better than just ignoring him, I think.

 

[SteveC]

Or the guy could have siad "N134X, unable flight following at this time, squawk VFR. Remain clear." That woulda been better than just ignoring him, I think.

Maybe ATC was giving him flight following, but he didn't know it because he couldn't hear the responses to his earlier transmissions.

It doesn't read to me like ATC was ignoring him. It sounds like ATC was responding but the pilot couldn't hear. Different scenario.

 

[matt152]

Just for future reference, it's easier to fly a 152 through the NY Bravo if it is early in the morning. Or top the airspace if you can.

Also, my experience is the more professional (concise) you sound on the radio the more likely it is they will clear you through it.

 

[unclenobby]

Would echo the responses on here. Continue on per your clearance as long as you can maintain VFR and if it is apparent you are lost comm then squak 7600. And file a report on ASRS.

 

[jima7011]

I try to avoid the Bravo Airspace whenever possible (over, under, around) just because of things like this----

 

[KLB]

I try to avoid the Bravo Airspace whenever possible (over, under, around) just because of things like this----

Class B flying isn't that bad. If you know the rules and procedures it's a piece of cake. You may as well go ahead and get used to it now. You'll be more than likely flying into throughout your career.