I still say that it was Pinnacles attempt to underbid all this flying that got them into this situation. Had they bid what they could afford they would not have to depend on Delta/United to rework the CPA's. Delta did not put them into this situation. Pinnacles own management did. My comment that it has fortunately caught up to them is no reflection on the employees of the airline. I hope if concessions are forced upon the group that most will say enough is enough and move on. Why bring this industry any lower? I do agree with you that the best situation may be for Pinnacle to get bought out and new CPA's negotiated.
what Pinnacle management is asking for...
- Thread starter blee256
- Start date
I still say that it was Pinnacles attempt to underbid all this flying that got them into this situation. Had they bid what they could afford they would not have to depend on Delta/United to rework the CPA's. Delta did not put them into this situation. Pinnacles own management did. My comment that it has fortunately caught up to them is no reflection on the employees of the airline. I hope if concessions are forced upon the group that most will say enough is enough and move on. Why bring this industry any lower? I do agree with you that the best situation may be for Pinnacle to get bought out and new CPA's negotiated.
blee256
Well-Known Member
I understand the need for concessions by the company, but I am not willing to give away the farm. The 5% paycut they can have, as well as the premium pay for open time. But i dont see myself voting(if we do get a vote) for anything without min day, greatly reduced 401k match, and a more expensive and less favorable health insurance. As of now, the company only matches 50% of what i put in, up to 8%. So they are only putting in 4%. However I do know, the really senior guys get a great match. I can see that being cut.
Good luck!
Good luck!
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
The first proposal didn't have drastic cuts in benefits and soft pay.
sherpa
Well-Known Member
so the cash crunch caused by Delta not paying pinnacle for transition and pilot pay raise costs (which were agreed to) and constant schedule jacking last year resulting in over 30mil in cash not received didn't cause this?
Not saying mismanagement didn't play a big role, but to be clear delta saw the opportunity, and made it happen
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
This. Like it or not, Delta merged with NWA, and all the contracts they had, which includes the one with 9E. They've been withholding money for a good long time now. I'm not privy to what we bid for flying, so I can't say that's the reason we wound up where we are. I'm sure it's part of it, but I'm not sure it's the major reason. Something Pinnacle should NOT have done was buy Colgan. The ONLY reason they bought Colgan was to have a non-union vehicle for growth. Hence the reason money started getting funneled from 9E to Colgan since day one of the purchase. They spent a LOT of money on lawyers trying to keep the pilot groups separate as well.....even AFTER Colgan voted in ALPA. If it were just the flying at Colgan that was losing money, bankrupt Colgan as a subsidiary, liquidate it and keep rolling. Unfortunately, that means they're still stuck with that pesky pilot contract they signed last year. Why just close the doors on Colgan when they can kill two birds with one stone, return the airline to profitability and then give each other bonuses after it's all over with what they saved.
Angry? Yes. Bitter? Hell, yes. I feel bad for everyone employed at Pinnacle airlines, but the place needs to be shut down at this point. If management is so bassackwards they need Great Lakes style pay and benefits to remain profitable doing the same thing GoJets, Skywest and ASA do....FOR THE SAME CUSTOMER, then they don't even deserved to be called "managers."
5% pay cut? No, they can't have that. Sure, I'll give it to them as long as they balance it out somewhere else, like give me my old health care premiums back. 401k they can have, IMO. I won't be here long enough for it to matter, and likely, the way they run things, the airline won't be around much longer, either. Min day? Hell, no. We'd go BACK to being one of the few regionals without it.....but, ya know, we're so far above industry average, and that's why we're bankrupt. Sad thing is, the Mesaba guys looked at this JCBA almost as a concessionary contract, and they're operation was still making money up until Pinnacle management jacked it up.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
At least with the AMR term sheet, it was obvious that it was a real swing for the fences and that there would be some effort for negotiations and a middle ground figured out.
Pinnacle's term sheet is more of line drive that has no chance of being caught and there is nearly no room for negotiations.
It is sad that we as a pilot group are being asked to give up so much when the pilot group did nothing to put the airline into bankrupcy.
pilotlight
Well-Known Member
My observations of this whole mess:
First off it sucks
Often these management proposals are written as a preview of whats to come. The part in pay about aircraft 86 seats or lower (CRJ 1000) or CRJ 900 in high density config.
Then the part about scope how it describes in detail what happens if a non alpa carrier buys us
My new prediction: We are gutted by a judge, reserve will be like slavery again. Then Delta will buy us but operate us seperate/ Everything will suck, but then we will exchange our 200's for 900's and yes 1000's. Delta is negotiating with their pilots right now and if they get their pilots to agree to more scope (hopefully not), Then this is more likely to happen.. It will probably be attached with a flow through. Then one year later, skywest will buy us (see carrier that is not the same union in the scope section) and the flow will be toast except for enough guys down the list that are friends with the MEC (just like mesaba's sale, I feel so bad for the 109th guy on their list. )
First off it sucks
Often these management proposals are written as a preview of whats to come. The part in pay about aircraft 86 seats or lower (CRJ 1000) or CRJ 900 in high density config.
Then the part about scope how it describes in detail what happens if a non alpa carrier buys us
My new prediction: We are gutted by a judge, reserve will be like slavery again. Then Delta will buy us but operate us seperate/ Everything will suck, but then we will exchange our 200's for 900's and yes 1000's. Delta is negotiating with their pilots right now and if they get their pilots to agree to more scope (hopefully not), Then this is more likely to happen.. It will probably be attached with a flow through. Then one year later, skywest will buy us (see carrier that is not the same union in the scope section) and the flow will be toast except for enough guys down the list that are friends with the MEC (just like mesaba's sale, I feel so bad for the 109th guy on their list. )
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Yeah, this is going to court. That's the only thing we know is going to happen. The company won't budge. We won't budge, so it's going to be up to the lawyers and judges. Not sure if Delta will buy us or not. I doubt the Delta guys will allow more scope to be degraded. God, I hope not. Another way around it, would be for them to buy 9E, put them on the seniority list at Delta (since scope applies in that case), then they can do whatever they want.....and just put insane fences on things.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't be 100% sure about that. There is a reason everyone comes to a agreement. The big unknown for both sides.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
In the past, the people coming to agreements were mostly ending up with contracts that still provided themselves with six figure incomes and somewhat decent quality of life, because these were all major airline bankruptcies. The regionals are a different game. When you only make $40k and get 12 days off to start with, how much more are you willing to give up? The sacrifice isn't quite worth what it is at the mainline level.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Strange sense of deja vu. I think I've lived through that already (minus the oil refinery).
And who was the CEO of Northwest Airlines at the time? Yep, none other than Richard Anderson.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Well most of the CA's will probably vote yes because they have a lot more to lose. As an FO I would vote no just because I don't have nearly as much to lose.
Sure some pilots can go make the same money outside of aviation but I personally wouldn't be able to replace my RJ salary with similar pay for years maybe decades after losing it at this point.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Investors should really sue, it's the only way airlines can make any sort of money in the game.Strange sense of deja vu. I think I've lived through that already (minus the oil refinery).
And who was the CEO of Northwest Airlines at the time? Yep, none other than Richard Anderson.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
It depends. Yes, the older CAs within 10-15 years of retirement would probably all vote yes, except for the really militant guys. But if I were still there, I'd be a very senior CA, and I'd be voting no on just about anything more than a simple short-term pay cut. Gutting work rules, retirement, and benefits at a regional is draconian and unacceptable.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Like ATN_Pilot said, not all CAs. For me, and I just ran the numbers, with the commute, crashpad, pay cuts, increased health insurance, etc, etc built in, I can be home every night in my own bed and make not much less just by going back to being a theme park manager (which is actually a possibility should I want it). So, let's see.....continue to be Pinnacle's whipping boy for the forseeable future or create schedules for Kraken or Manta at Sea World and handle guest disputes while enjoying a frosty cold one on a nightly basis.....and getting a full night's sleep. Gee, lemme think about it.
Bottom line, if it's a really bad deal, the guys below me are gonna move up a spot.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
We need some F.U.P.M. bracelets. ANY type of concession is an instant no deal for me unless it's only to every single management position. Send it to the judge cause my vote for anything else is no.