What is wrong with pilots

They are out there man. I left the place you are referring to, to a place that typed me with no contract, and the pay is fantastic. These companies exist. You don't hear about them as often because people leave less.
 
DE727UPS said:
Cost of doing business. If said good company offered QOL and pay on par with the competition, then the pilot widget would stay. You get what you pay for.
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Training seems to come off a different balance sheet. It seem some airlines like the revolving door system...
 
Bandit_Driver said:
Training seems to come off a different balance sheet. It seem some airlines like the revolving door system...
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It is a weird thing. I have talked to upper management at my previous company (off the cuff) about this very issue. The numbers are there, it makes more sense to pay the existing pilots more, than to pay for new hire training. Unfortunately, there are those at the top that seem to like the revolving door better. So dumb.
 
DE727UPS said:
Cost of doing business. If said good company offered QOL and pay on par with the competition, then the pilot widget would stay. You get what you pay for.
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This is my response in this thread (http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/training-bond.165582/page-3#post-2054220) a few days ago. It applies here too. I realize some haven't been exposed much to true pt. 91 and only think of crappy 135 and 121 when they think training contract. If I would've told them to stuff the training contract out of some preconceived idea I wouldn't enjoy the job I have now.


"This really is only partly true. There are many good corporate jobs that have some type of contract at least for the first year. We like to tell ourselves that a reputable operator doesn't need one if they treat their employees well. The problem is I know of several good places that did just that only to get burned. Unfortunately there are some super D Bags amongst us. Guys get their 15-20k type only to go back to their other/airline job a month or two later. Or people that have several apps in at other employers and hop from job to job at the drop of a hat. It happens. Until we weed out the A-holes it will continue to happen. Now if a company continues to require one after the first year of service, that might be a bit much. I think if you prove to them you're not a complete tard, show up on time and do your job well, they in turn owe you the same respect. Every job opportunity is different, look at the whole picture before making a decision to accept or reject a job. Don't just base it on a singular thing."
 
brian434 said:
So most of us spent very good money to become a pilot. Out of college we work our **** off to build flight time and get valuable experience. Even after getting some decent time in our log books we're still asked to work for <$30,000. On top of that there are training contracts, roommates during training, and a general lack of respect for who we are or what we do.


That's it. I'm done venting...
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What you're describing is nothing new. Entry level positions in aviation are low paying, which makes them no different than any other job. This was the accepted paradigm for years...decades even. What's changed is that the potential for moving on/up is much reduced compared to the past. That's going to continue until our economy starts growing again.
 
A-300F4-622R said:
Made real good money as a heavy equipment operator working construction right out of high school. Saved enough money to pay cash for my commercial, instrument and multi-engine. FBO that I flew out of was a multi-brand aircraft dealer and I got a gig ferrying aircraft around as soon as I got my commercial. That and the money I saved working construction got me to 1200 hrs fairly quickly. I ran into a guy I met flying checks when I was just a student pilot. He was now the ACP and recognized me and asked if I had 1200 hrs. I said "yes" and he asked If I wanted a job flying checks. I said "yes" again, and the rest is, how you say, "history".

So, no college, no CFI, hired right at 1200 hrs, ATP and Learjet type at 23 and hired at my first major at barely 26. Some would call it lucky. Some would call it being at the right place at the right time. Some would call it the result of positive networking.
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So when exactly did you lose the "positive networking" ability? I'm happy you're happy with your career and your path, but do you view "positive networking", at this stage of your career, as constantly telling people how successful you are and how everyone else is not as good? Is there a greater strategy to that or does it just help with your feelings about penis size? Genuinely curious.
 
brian434 said:
So most of us spent very good money to become a pilot. Out of college we work our **** off to build flight time and get valuable experience. Even after getting some decent time in our log books we're still asked to work for <$30,000. On top of that there are training contracts, roommates during training, and a general lack of respect for who we are or what we do.


That's it. I'm done venting...
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Are you're just now finding this out? Please tell me you knew this before you spent good money training?
 
Ajax BU said:
To post somewhat of a serious reply in here(I just thought that gif was hilarious), I understand. I haven't even made it to the jet a burning world and I feel you, I have had to turn down two jobs because I can't afford it. I'm a CFI, what in the world is wrong when I can't afford to take a job that is supposedly a "promotion"?
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You must have an usually high paid CFI job. I broke 30k my first year at one of the lowest paying jet regionals out there. I'm not saying that's a lot but in my understanding, it's more than most CFI's.
 
Jet said:
You must have an usually high paid CFI job. I broke 30k my first year at one of the lowest paying jet regionals out there. I'm not saying that's a lot but in my understanding, it's more than most CFI's.
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Nope, but I also don't have the hours for a regional.
 
I have the hours for a regional but I'm going to pass. The problem is when you look at how many hours you are away on company business. Not just flying. The hourly pay drops off pretty fast I'd say.

The problem with the "paying your dues logic" is that almost every other professional position starts with better benefits or better pay than what we get after years in aviation. When I started wrenching on c130s I was new to the aircraft. Starting pay was over $70. My buddy's first IT job out of school had benefits and started at $40.

Anyone trying to sell is the idea that our input (skill, time away, sacrifices) to income level is something to be proud of needs to take a look at a few other industries.

The problem arises when our job is truly fun. Then we work cheaper, and cheaper until my pizza delivery guy is clearing more a year.
 
When you're fresh out of college you're simply going to have a lower standard of living than when you were living at home with your parents. If your family enjoys a middle class lifestyle don't think for a minute you are going to continue living that lifestyle when you graduate and get a job. You have to start at the bottom and get paid less because you're new, don't know as much, and aren't as valuable. Once the years go by things will probably improve. Sure you could have some bad luck along the way with furloughs, lay-offs, etc, but generally most of you in your early 20s will be doing just fine by the time you're forty.
 
brian434 said:
I have the hours for a regional but I'm going to pass. The problem is when you look at how many hours you are away on company business. Not just flying. The hourly pay drops off pretty fast I'd say.

The problem with the "paying your dues logic" is that almost every other professional position starts with better benefits or better pay than what we get after years in aviation. When I started wrenching on c130s I was new to the aircraft. Starting pay was over $70. My buddy's first IT job out of school had benefits and started at $40.

Anyone trying to sell is the idea that our input (skill, time away, sacrifices) to income level is something to be proud of needs to take a look at a few other industries.

The problem arises when our job is truly fun. Then we work cheaper, and cheaper until my pizza delivery guy is clearing more a year.
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If you don't enjoy being on the road then there are day trips. The regional I work for has a base with the junior FO's home every night (if they moved in base) with 17 days off. Why spend all that money training to just quit? Did you not research the industry before hand? First year pay didn't just turn crappy yesterday.
 
Actually I was 16 when I started so I didn't do a ton of research. Sixteen year olds are the most forward thinking of folks.
 
Ian J said:
When you're fresh out of college you're simply going to have a lower standard of living than when you were living at home with your parents. If your family enjoys a middle class lifestyle don't think for a minute you are going to continue living that lifestyle when you graduate and get a job. You have to start at the bottom and get paid less because you're new, don't know as much, and aren't as valuable. Once the years go by things will probably improve. Sure you could have some bad luck along the way with furloughs, lay-offs, etc, but generally most of you in your early 20s will be doing just fine by the time you're forty.
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Nobody is saying a mid-20s year old should be able to buy a house out in the 'burbs. However a mid-20s year old should be able to pay for living expenses in a modest apartment without having to get by on paycheck to paycheck. If the bar keeps getting lowered because "you are 20 and you can deal with it" at what point does it become "you are 30 and you can deal with it" or "you are 40 so you should be used to it" and how low exactly will the bar keep going?


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Edited for Syntax.
 
bunk22 said:
You guys should have joined the military, you could complain about the lack of flying, the long days, the BS that goes along with being in the military, the long deployments, etc, etc. No matter what, I for one will never complain about not being home after being gone for 365 days straight. I will though complain about the pay, food and lack of good looking flight attendants :)
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So you went with XJT huh? ;)
 
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