What is wrong with pilots

drunkenbeagle said:
The flying biz is no different than any other. Tell them thanks, but no thanks, the terms don't work for you. When they can't find anyone, things improve. It is hard to negotiate when you aren't willing to walk away.

Hell, I've done lots of interviews for gigs I was unlikely to take, because of pay. In hindsight, it is a smart thing to do. Someone gets used to making offers and having people walk, perhaps they rethink the compensation the next time around.
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The problem with a lot of flying jobs is that a lot of people will not turn down the super low paying job offers. They just want to fly, and the folks doing the hiring know that. If you turn down the offer, there are at least 10 more eager pilots behind you who will gladly take the offer because they get to fly.
 
pilot4500 said:
The problem with a lot of flying jobs is that a lot of people will not turn down the super low paying job offers. They just want to fly, and the folks doing the hiring know that. If you turn down the offer, there are at least 10 more eager pilots behind you who will gladly take the offer because they get to fly.
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Good (or bad) for them.

Hold out for something better for yourself.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
True. But at the same time, I'm not one to walk into something with the total intention of not honoring my word.
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Honoring your word? I'm sure the company would love more wide eyed, ignorant pilots to come in knowing they will honor their word. That way they know you'll stay a long time, and accept being treated like crap for peanuts.
 
pilot4500 said:
The problem with a lot of flying jobs is that a lot of people will not turn down the super low paying job offers. They just want to fly, and the folks doing the hiring know that. If you turn down the offer, there are at least 10 more eager pilots behind you who will gladly take the offer because they get to fly.
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Exactly. Pilots are their own worst enemies. There will never be a huge impetus on management to raise pay when there are so many willing to work for so little.
 
Apophis said:
Honoring your word? I'm sure the company would love more wide eyed, ignorant pilots to come in knowing they will honor their word. That way they know you'll stay a long time, and accept being treated like crap for peanuts.
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Oh exactly, with the situation I'm in now, I don't feel bad bailing on it. The job isn't really as advertised. But I'm saying, I'm not going to go to a carrier with the intent of walking out on a reasonable training contract. While they aren't great, I don't think anything at/under 1 year is too outrageous.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Oh exactly, with the situation I'm in now, I don't feel bad bailing on it. The job isn't really as advertised. But I'm saying, I'm not going to go to a carrier with the intent of walking out on a reasonable training contract. While they aren't great, I don't think anything at/under 1 year is too outrageous.
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I hear you bud. I will say that ANY company that requires a training contract, no matter how short, is immediately suspicious to me. A company that treats its employees with respect, and pays them a respectable wage, won't have to worry about pilots bolting after two or three months to go someplace else.

And for the few that do decide to bolt? It's called the cost of doing business.
 
brian434 said:
This just might be the catalyst that I need to make the move out of aviation.

My times are not great but I have time in the proposed aircraft. Here is the offer.

Two weeks unpaid indoc.
Shared hotel room during training.
One year initial contract.
Additional cost if placed into other aircraft (have time in higher performance aircraft)
Pay $28,000


I'm going to lose it! :mad:


I blame Bush and Obama :sarcasm: Thanks for the laugh.
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Annnnnd people hate on the regionals...
 
brian434 said:
This just might be the catalyst that I need to make the move out of aviation.

My times are not great but I have time in the proposed aircraft. Here is the offer.

Two weeks unpaid indoc.
Shared hotel room during training.
One year initial contract.
Additional cost if placed into other aircraft (have time in higher performance aircraft)
Pay $28,000


I'm going to lose it! :mad:


I blame Bush and Obama :sarcasm: Thanks for the laugh.
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All of which was already known on the interweb. Don't act stunned.

Also it isn't an additional cost. Just a bit more money tacked on an unenforceable training contract for a bigger aircraft.

Apophis said:
I hear you bud. I will say that ANY company that requires a training contract, no matter how short, is immediately suspicious to me. A company that treats its employees with respect, and pays them a respectable wage, won't have to worry about pilots bolting after two or three months to go someplace else.

And for the few that do decide to bolt? It's called the cost of doing business.
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You would think that but there are people that still screw over good companies. Furloughed airline guys have been known to bolt as soon as their recall letter shows up. I believe there was someone on this forum that did just that. Got a type and then "oooo recall!" a couple months later. Some people just don't like X lifestyle and bolt early.

Good companies have been screwed. Unfortunately, it does give bad companies and extra tool to try to keep you around. I wouldn't be suspicious unless it was a ridiculous amount of time and money.
 
DE727UPS said:
Cost of doing business. If said good company offered QOL and pay on par with the competition, then the pilot widget would stay. You get what you pay for.
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In other words, the labor market is functioning exactly like it's supposed to be.
 
You guys should have joined the military, you could complain about the lack of flying, the long days, the BS that goes along with being in the military, the long deployments, etc, etc. No matter what, I for one will never complain about not being home after being gone for 365 days straight. I will though complain about the pay, food and lack of good looking flight attendants :)
 
Had a talk with the nice people at a place with a name that sounds like a delicious pie recently. I was going to come to them with the type rating already for the aircraft they are hiring into. When I asked the lady over the phone if there was anything that could be done with the training contract and she said no, I asked for captains pay that was a few years in, and she said no. I started to laugh as I hung up on her. But before I did, I fired off with

"Wait, so you want me to leave the job I'm at now, that pays me better, to give you 18 months of my life, that if I leave for any reason (including getting fired), you are going to come after me for $14k, even if that happens because I get terminated a day before that contract is up? BWWAHHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAA!" *click*

Seems like this is par for the industry now. Many operators are leaning toward this because people are getting desperate taking "stepping stone" jobs. Before you take that job, have a look around at what is actually available once you are done stepping on that stone. There isn't much. I hope there will be movement soon in the industry, but I don't see signs that that is going to happen anytime soon, with any volume. Sure there will be movement for some. But the mass shortage of pilots here in the US still hasn't materialized. it's been discussed here since I joined. That was four years ago. I'm still waiting.
 
brian434 said:
Here is the offer.

Two weeks unpaid indoc.
Shared hotel room during training.
One year initial contract.
Additional cost if placed into other aircraft (have time in higher performance aircraft)
Pay $28,000
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I hate to say it, but this is one of those times living in a "right to work" state pays off. They can have you sign a 10 year agreement and it's not enforceable. Also, as mentioned - it's not easy to hold out for the job that pays well when your bills are piling up - but there are a lot of pilots who do just that. I am worth $XX,xxx and that's what I am to be paid, at minimum....
 
However, remember that anyone working under the RLA is not protected by being in a Right to Work state.

At least, that's what an aviation lawyer told me once.
 
brian434 said:
So most of us spent very good money to become a pilot. Out of college we work our **** off to build flight time and get valuable experience. Even after getting some decent time in our log books we're still asked to work for <$30,000. On top of that there are training contracts, roommates during training, and a general lack of respect for who we are or what we do.


That's it. I'm done venting...
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There are 2 types of pilots on this earth. Those that use those as a necessary stepping stone, and those who are fat dumb and happy being treated like second rate citizens. At my previous employer, there were those who knew it was temporary, and took the crap (as did I) to get the hours and get out. There were also people there that are still there, that just cannot believe somebody has been so nice as to provide a crappy, busted up airplane, barely a crew car, a homeless shelter without the added benefits of food for a crew apartment, and being nickeled and dimed out of the poverty level salary they are provided with. Oh and on top of that, would burn them and fire them at the drop of a hat. But, both types of pilots are the problem, and that really encompasses 100% of the pilot population.

It is a vicious cycle. Companies treat their pilots like crap, so they leave faster, so the company wants training contracts. Yet they wonder why the turnover rate is astronomical.
 
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