What insulates CHQ/Republic From Cuts?

Here's how I'd deal with the memos:

1. Read memo of religious views, a bit of company kool aid, the doom and gloom. (Skip the news section since I keep up on it anyway.)

2. Verify my paystub

3. Check bank account and ensure check cleared.

4. drink beer.

BB is a lot of things. A born-again, father to like 400 kids, and savvy business guy. I used to say it when I worked there.

Make the company money, so I can make money, and don't screw with my days off. A paycheck that doesn't bounce in aviation is hard to beat.
 
I would much rather have BB preaching about his religious views than JO or most of the other regional presidents at the helm... The guy is extremely business savvy.

God is always riding jump seat on Republic. :)
 
I would much rather have BB preaching about his religious views than JO or most of the other regional presidents at the helm... The guy is extremely business savvy.

God is always riding jump seat on Republic. :)

Are we including Shuttle America in on this? Or just Republic "Airlines," and not the other two organizations in the holding company?

NATIONAL TRANSPORTATION SAFETY BOARD
Public Meeting of April 15, 2008
(Information subject to editing)
Aviation Accident Report
Runway Overrun During Landing, Shuttle America, Inc.,
Doing Business as Delta Connection Flight 6448,
Embraer ERJ-170, N862RW,
Cleveland, Ohio, February 18, 2007
NTSB/AAR-08/01



This is a synopsis from the Safety Board’s report and does not include the Board’s rationale for the conclusions, probable cause, and safety recommendations. Safety Board staff is currently making final revisions to the report from which the attached conclusions and safety recommendations have been extracted. The final report and pertinent safety recommendation letters will be distributed to recommendation recipients as soon as possible. The attached information is subject to further review and editing.

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

On February 18, 2007, about 1506 eastern standard time, Delta Connection flight 6448, an Embraer ERJ-170, N862RW, operated by Shuttle America, Inc., was landing on runway 28 at Cleveland-Hopkins International Airport, Cleveland, Ohio, during snow conditions when it overran the end of the runway, contacted an instrument landing system (ILS) antenna, and struck an airport perimeter fence. The airplane’s nose gear collapsed during the overrun. Of the 2 flight crewmembers, 2 flight attendants, and 71 passengers on board, 3 passengers received minor injuries. The airplane received substantial damage from the impact forces. The flight was operating under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121 from Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport, Atlanta, Georgia. Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed at the time of the accident.
The safety issues discussed in this report focus on (1) flight training for rejected landings in deteriorating weather conditions and maximum performance landings on contaminated runways, (2) standard operating procedures for the go-around callout, and (3) pilot fatigue policies. Safety recommendations concerning these issues are addressed to the Federal Aviation Administration.





CONCLUSIONS

1. The captain and the first officer were properly certificated and qualified under Federal regulations.
2. The accident airplane was properly certificated, equipped, and maintained in accordance with Federal regulations. The recovered components showed no evidence of any preimpact structural, engine, or system failures.
3. Although marginal visual flight rules weather conditions existed at Cleveland-Hopkins International Airport during most of the accident flight, the weather conditions had rapidly deteriorated while the airplane was on approach, with moderate to heavy snow reported during the approach and at the time of the landing.
4. The approach and tower controllers that handled the accident flight performed their duties properly and ensured that the flight crew had timely weather and runway condition information. Airport personnel at Cleveland-Hopkins International Airport appropriately monitored runway conditions and provided snow removal services in accordance with the airport’s Federal Aviation Administration-approved snow removal plan. The emergency response to the accident scene was timely.
5. Because the flight crewmembers were advised that the glideslope was unusable, they should not have executed the approach to instrument landing system minimums; instead, they should have set up, briefed, and accomplished the approach to localizer (glideslope out) minimums.
6. When the captain called for a go-around because he could not see the runway environment, the first officer should have immediately executed a missed approach regardless of whether he had the runway in sight.
7. When the first officer did not immediately execute a missed approach, as instructed, the captain should have reasserted his go-around call or, if necessary, taken control of the airplane.
8. Because the first officer lost sight of the runway just before landing, he should have abandoned the landing attempt and immediately executed a missed approach.
9. The rejected landing training currently required by the Federal Aviation Administration is not optimal because it does not account for the possibility that pilots may need to reject a landing as a result of rapidly deteriorating weather conditions.
10. Pilots need to perform landing distance assessments because they account for conditions at the time of arrival and add a safety margin of at least 15 percent to calculated landing distances, and this accident reinforces the need for pilots to execute a landing in accordance with the assumptions used in the assessments.
11. On the basis of company procedures and flight training criteria, the airplane’s touchdown at 2,900 feet down the 6,017-foot runway was an unacceptably long landing.
12. The flight crewmembers did not use reverse thrust and braking to their maximum effectiveness; if they had done so, the airplane would likely have stopped before the end of the runway.
13. Specific training for pilots in applying maximum braking and maximum reverse thrust on contaminated runways until a safe stop is ensured would reinforce the skills needed to successfully accomplish such landings.
14. The runway safety area for runway 28 still does not meet Federal Aviation Administration standards.
15. The Shuttle America chief pilot’s instruction not to use the slide was inappropriate because he did not have the same knowledge as the flight crew and on-scene airport rescue and firefighting personnel and his instruction restricted the options for deplaning the passengers.
16. The captain’s use of imprecise terminology for the go-around callout, his failure to clearly assert the callout, and the lack of a clear company procedure that would allow the monitoring pilot to make the callout contributed to the first officer’s failure to discontinue the approach.
17. Both flying and monitoring pilots should be able to call for a go-around because one pilot might detect a potentially unsafe condition that the other pilot does not detect.
18. The captain was fatigued, which degraded his performance during the accident flight.
19. Even though the first officer had been flying a heavy schedule through the time of the accident, there was insufficient evidence to determine whether fatigue was a factor in his performance during the flight.
20. Shortcomings in Shuttle America’s attendance policy limited its effectiveness because the specific details of the policy were not documented in writing and were not clearly communicated to pilots, especially the administrative implications or consequences of calling in as fatigued.
21. Shuttle America’s failure to administer its attendance policy as written might have discouraged some of the company’s pilots, including the accident captain, from calling in when they were sick or fatigued because of concerns about the possibility of termination.
22. By not advising the company of his fatigue or removing himself from duty, the captain placed himself, his crew, and his passengers in a dangerous situation that could have been avoided.
23. A fatigue policy that allows flight crewmembers to call in as fatigued without fear of reprisals would be an effective method for countering fatigue during flight operations.

PROBABLE CAUSE

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the failure of the flight crew to execute a missed approach when visual cues for the runway were not distinct and identifiable. Contributing to the accident were (1) the crew’s decision to descend to the instrument landing system decision height instead of the localizer (glideslope out) minimum descent altitude; (2) the first officer’s long landing on a short contaminated runway and the crew’s failure to use reverse thrust and braking to their maximum effectiveness; (3) the captain’s fatigue, which affected his ability to effectively plan for and monitor the approach and landing; and (4) Shuttle America’s failure to administer an attendance policy that permitted flight crewmembers to call in as fatigued without fear of reprisals

.
SAFETY RECOMMENDATIONS

As a result of the investigation of this accident, the National Transportation Safety Board makes the following recommendations:





To the Federal Aviation Administration:

1. Require 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121, 135 and 91 subpart K operators to include, in their initial, upgrade, transition, and recurrent simulator training for turbojet airplanes, (1) decision-making for rejected landings below 50 feet along with a rapid reduction in visual cues and (2) practice in executing this maneuver. (A-08-XX)
2. Require 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121, 135, and 91 subpart K operators to include, in their initial, upgrade, transition, and recurrent simulator training for turbojet airplanes, practice for pilots in accomplishing maximum performance landings on contaminated runways. (A-08-XX)
3. Require 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121, 135, and 91 subpart K operators to have a written policy emphasizing that either pilot can make a go-around callout and that the response to the callout is an immediate missed approach. (A-08-XX)
4. In cooperation with pilot unions, the Regional Airline Association, and the Air Transport Association, develop a specific, standardized policy for 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121, 135, and 91 subpart K operators that would allow flight crewmembers to decline assignments or remove themselves from duty if they were impaired by a lack of sleep. (A-08-XX)
5. Once the fatigue policy described in Safety Recommendation [4] has been developed, require 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 121, 135, and 91 subpart K operators to adopt this policy and provide, in writing, details of the policy to their flight crewmembers, including the administrative implications of fatigue calls. (A-08-XX)

Previously Issued Recommendations Classified in This Report

1. Safety Recommendations A-03-11 and -12 are classified “Open—Acceptable Response” in section 2.2.3 of this report.
2. Safety Recommendation A-07-57 (urgent) is classified “Open—Unacceptable Response” and Safety Recommendation A-07-61 is classified “Open—Acceptable Response” in section 2.2.1.4 of this report.

For the presentations: http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2008/Cleveland-OH/presentations.htm
 
Are we including Shuttle America in on this? Or just Republic "Airlines," and not the other two organizations in the holding company?
For the presentations: http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2008/Cleveland-OH/presentations.htm

That's pretty unneccessary.

There were serious systemic errors as well as an "error chain" about 10 miles long.

Every organization has it's faults. A tounge-in-cheek response shouldn't be a reason to throw an accident in anyone's face.

After you fly 121 for a long time, you'll see how anyone of us could have been that, or for the most part, any accident. Myself included.
 
What was so unnecessary? I'm not challenging the crew of that individual flight, or even the NTSB's determinations. But rather that God is not going to save a crew and an airplane.

The crew and the training they have will.

Further, I didn't throw an accident into anyone's face, but rather suggested that God has very little to do with the end outcome of a flight. I also recognized Socal's comment regarding God always occupying the jumpseat on a Republic flight is said in sarcasm (I think), but I am trying to emphasize the point that God (or whatever Idol you worship) has very little to do with the outcome of a flight.

We are human, we fly machines made by humans. We control our own destiny.
 
What was so unnecessary? I'm not challenging the crew of that individual flight, or even the NTSB's determinations. But rather that God is not going to save a crew and an airplane.

The crew and the training they have will.

Further, I didn't throw an accident into anyone's face, but rather suggested that God has very little to do with the end outcome of a flight. I also recognized Socal's comment regarding God always occupying the jumpseat on a Republic flight is said in sarcasm (I think), but I am trying to emphasize the point that God (or whatever Idol you worship) has very little to do with the outcome of a flight.

We are human, we fly machines made by humans. We control our own destiny.

Do you have any sense of humor? Yes it was sarcasm, I'm agnostic. But either way how did it go from that to the Shuttle accident? I agree with most of what you say but some of your posts come across as a grumpy old man that wants to ruin everyones fun. :confused:

It was entirely unnecessary. I don't think most pilots think God has anything to do with their mishaps or lack thereof.

Good talk guys good talk....
 
And I don't think that God is on anyone's Jumpseat.

So, I challenged that thought, even though it was stated in a sense of sarcasm.

We have much to learn, and much was learned from the Shuttle accident. No shame in that. Further, it should be obviously clear I didn't place blame on either of the crew members or even the company's procedures. So let's not assume I'm pointing fingers.

But hey - whatever. . .emotions as they are these days.
 
And I don't think that God is on anyone's Jumpseat.

So, I challenged that thought, even though it was stated in a sense of sarcasm.

We have much to learn, and much was learned from the Shuttle accident. No shame in that. Further, it should be obviously clear I didn't place blame on either of the crew members or even the company's procedures. So let's not assume I'm pointing fingers.

But hey - whatever. . .emotions as they are these days.

If you wanted to talk about Shuttle's overrun and how we could have learned from it start a new thread. Don't throw it into a thread that is completely off subject and then say that it was called for. Not one place did anyone say God had anything to do with anything other than Rjets president is known to go a little overboard on his religious views and the ensuing sarcastic remarks. You also admit to realizing that it was a sarcastic remark. People are just messing around and you jump on them and throw an accident down their throat to try and prove some point that has nothing to do with anything.

But yes I agree that God has nothing to do with the safe outcome of a flight.
 
I don't think I shoved an accident down anyone's throat. But as I said, emotions being as they are. . .I'll bow out of this one. You guys have fun, and I apologize for ruffling any feathers, even if it was indirect.
 
I knew I didn't want to goto work for Republic for a reason.

What a nut case.

Or maybe you didn't have enough hours to get hired by RAH.

Or maybe because you wanted to stay in ATL and that meant only one airline.

But we all know the one and only reason...we're not ALPA.
 
Here's how I'd deal with the memos:

1. Read memo of religious views, a bit of company kool aid, the doom and gloom. (Skip the news section since I keep up on it anyway.)

2. Verify my paystub

3. Check bank account and ensure check cleared.

4. drink beer.

BB is a lot of things. A born-again, father to like 400 kids, and savvy business guy. I used to say it when I worked there.

Make the company money, so I can make money, and don't screw with my days off. A paycheck that doesn't bounce in aviation is hard to beat.

Amen to that Polar!! (Sorry if the amen offends anyone). Preach it man.. (once again, sorry)...

It cracks me up that so many come on here and continually seem to be in the know of every other company but their own. Some haven't flown 1 hour in the cockpit of their company (ASA F/O) and dwell on the problems of our company. I'm barely at 350 hours and I have a long way to go as to where I'd like to be in the airplane and even farther to go in respect to knowing this industry.

Every day I get to fly a plane and get paid is a bonus. I may not have this job tomorrow depending on which way the wind blows Airways, and we're arguing and posting comments on BB's religious views? I'd take his business decisions and everything that goes along with it over most other CEO's out there.

Jeeesh.
 
Or maybe you didn't have enough hours to get hired by RAH.

Or maybe because you wanted to stay in ATL and that meant only one airline.

But we all know the one and only reason...we're not ALPA.

A bit sensitive??? Time to take a step back and get a deep breath.



God, or Jebus, isn't in my jumpseat....but if either one rides in yours....good for you.

We all know RAH is a good, stable company (at the moment).....but it isn't the next coming of Microsoft....although BB would probably like to take over the world.

BB's actions certainly seem a bit extreme....although, it's good to hear he's moved his religious rhetoric to a separate communication.



Can't we all just get along! :laff:
 
A bit sensitive??? Time to take a step back and get a deep breath.

Me?? Sensitive?? Surreal doesn't make it a secret as to his job choice. ASA's a good company with a good contract. Nothing to be sensitive about, he's at ASA for the above reasons and he'll tell you that as well.
 
It cracks me up that so many come on here and continually seem to be in the know of every other company but their own. Some haven't flown 1 hour in the cockpit of their company (ASA F/O) and dwell on the problems of our company. I'm barely at 350 hours and I have a long way to go as to where I'd like to be in the airplane and even farther to go in respect to knowing this industry.

Man, you're in a special kind of mood today now aren't you?

I don't think I ever once tried to provide any significant insight into RAH or it's subsidiaries. That's for those who actually work there to do.

Haven't flown 1 hour in the cockpit of their company. . .okay, wrong. But hey, what do facts matter around here anyway when you can just toss around statements without being able to back them up.

I wasn't dwelling on anyone's problems actually, merely stating an opinion and providing input like everyone else has been on this internet forum. You know, discussing and stuff...:rolleyes:

Here's to hoping you do develop that understanding of the industry you seek. I feel pretty dang comfortable with my understanding considering the personal experiences I've had even prior to being employed by a 121 company, but that doesn't mean that I won't continue to learn and build on the prior experiences going all the way back to 1989 when my family enter the 121 game.

But once again, emotions appear to be running so damn high around this place it's almost as bad as a Pre-K playground.

Me?? Sensitive?? Surreal doesn't make it a secret as to his job choice. ASA's a good company with a good contract. Nothing to be sensitive about, he's at ASA for the above reasons and he'll tell you that as well.

I will. :) Unfortunately or fortunately, your order is incorrect.

First, was I wanted to be employed by an ALPA represented company. Second, I did not want to commute and would only commute to an ALPA represented company.

You indicated reason #1 as for lacking the minimum experience requirements for RAH. Which, since RAH did not satisfy the two previous personal specifications their experience requirements were never in question.
 
Oh lordy.... an RAH thread going down hill with the new hires of RAH crying foul. I might just add the upper half of RAH seniority are among the best guys you can ever be with. Period no and ifs or buts about it. The Old CHQ guys are flipping awesome. But the new half they hired the past year are something else. However we wont go into that (before any of you new guys argue it ask some of your old guys about it they will verify it).

Anyways CHQ/RAH isnt immune. They could in fact be gone tomorrow ya never know. Fact is no one knows for sure RAH will get any more UAL flying. Also other then Airways the rest are in deed scoped at 70 seats or there about. Regardless you will be hearing a lot in the days to come about J4J and stuff like that. As well I doubt UAL is about to give up any of their scope. Thus in the end you are flying a heavy plane, however great pax comfort, and paying a nice price in fuel for it.

In the end who knows what will happen. I would just say Bradford right now is doing great. But when your FUEL is paid for, when you are a "sub" contract carrier as the name before the EXPRESS goes so do you. In the end look where Bradford was last... Mesaba was the place and he left that place in a whole lot of hurt.

At the end as we all know I'm the religious type and he does indeed attend my church. Do I think its wrong to put remarks about church and God into company memos? As much as I think its wrong to do it in school so yes. Anyways. At the days end right now they are doing ok. Tomorrow who knows what will happen as is the same with ANY regional. However today they are dong fine. But I dont really think any ANY express carrier should CELEBRATE getting more flying right now. We have mainline bros/sisters out of jobs. Thus we should show the better side of us and be more concerned about them instead of gaining flying.
 
Oh lordy.... an RAH thread going down hill with the new hires of RAH crying foul. I might just add the upper half of RAH seniority are among the best guys you can ever be with. Period no and ifs or buts about it. The Old CHQ guys are flipping awesome. But the new half they hired the past year are something else. However we wont go into that (before any of you new guys argue it ask some of your old guys about it they will verify it).

Get a life Meyers. If you are all buddy buddy with all the senior guys at Republic how come you didn't come here? How do you even have the insight to make a comment like that. Also who has cried foul so far? All I was saying is that it was inappropriate for surreal to make those comments considering where the thread was going and were over it and that BB's (by the way Bradford isn't his name so I hope you aren't calling him that to his face in church) comments make me laugh. And what should we be asking the senior guys? Whether or not they are awesome and the new guys suck?

Period no ifs ands or buts about it.:banghead:
 
Get a life Meyers. If you are all buddy buddy with all the senior guys at Republic how come you didn't come here? How do you even have the insight to make a comment like that. Also who has cried foul so far? All I was saying is that it was inappropriate for surreal to make those comments considering where the thread was going and were over it and that BB's (by the way Bradford isn't his name so I hope you aren't calling him that to his face in church) comments make me laugh. And what should we be asking the senior guys? Whether or not they are awesome and the new guys suck?

Period no ifs ands or buts about it.:banghead:

Oh name calling? Very mature and professional. Funny thing is I already recieved PM's from others saying "Dead on with your post." Looks like you are a west coast boy. I've watched both PSA/RAH growing up. I know much about them both from back in the mid 90's to now. From the Shuttle/CHQ guys and what not. YOu can resort to name calling. As it shows exactly what I speak of about the lower half of the seniority list there. Bedford is a great CEO. Actually I thought my post was very nice to RAH. Funny how you found it offensive. Weird how it also proved my comments true about those who were hired recently at RAH. I appreciate the assistance greatly. Oh and I did have the choice between PSA/RAH. I chose PSA. Like the small company and the fact that they had a small pilot group and a positive outlook in the industry. Thus my decision. But you never bothered to ask about where I had the choice to go until now ;)!
 
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