"What does it pay?"

greaper007 said:
I agree that we should all do whatever we possibly can to lower our debt. But some debt is inescapable for most people who want to pursue careers that require higher education or specialized training. I did my flight training on the super cheap, and it still ended up being about 40,000. This was about 6 years ago, I'm sure it's considerably more now. I'm not sure what job would afford you the time off and pay high enough to to allow someone "pay as you go" on $40,000 worth of debt. For most of us it would probably take the better part of five years to pay as you go while working a full time job, and that's just to get to flight instructor level. At that rate you might hit a regional within 8 years.

Beyond that, even with zero debt it would be difficult for most people to live on 25k a year in an exotic location. Unless that locale was in a third world country. After all, if you're an advocate for reducing your debt you must be an advocate for contributing to your retirement and properly funding things like health insurance. Those two things alone will end up around $650 a month. Good luck finding rent under a thousand dollars a month in most exotic first world locals. That leaves about $433 a month for everything else you need.

I still contend that taking a lower paid position at a company that historically has a quicker upgrade is a decent calculated risk. It's exactly what I did with Colgan, and I upgraded in the same amount of time that it took many people to get off of IOE. I would never take a low paying job just because it was in a cool location though.
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I appreciate the time you took to write all that. I paid out of pocket for my ratings. By that I mean I saved that amount minus the extra $1,900 in unanticipated costs. Other than the $1,900 I paid off in 2 months, I came out with zero debt. Imagine that, I saved up for it.

As far as "pay as you go", how is that different than going to college? Attending class during the day, working after hours.... Unfortunately these specialized paper mill, er, aviation colleges have set the bar for what it should cost. The attitude that incurring debt in pursuit of ratings is abnormal but has become so commonplace that it is acceptable. Yet it is not the norm. The attitude must be to not incur debt in the first place. Student loans in pursuit of academics at an accredited college is not exactly what I mean since it is not the issue at hand. ER, et al, have 'blended' the ratings and the academics in a somewhat customized bundling and by doing so they have set the price.

I can live on $2K/mo in Honolulu or Los Angeles or Key West. In Key West I can live on a friend's yacht or at a vacant 2nd home. I have done it before and can do it again. I'm just saying the opportunities are there where ever you go.

You bring up a very good point about funding retirement and carrying ins. You are quite right that I am a proponent of that but with the addition that debt is serviced first, then retirement. It may be a juggling act for some amount of time but the goal is to be debt free to allow the others.

Which ever path one takes is right for them. I will not judge another by whether I would follow suit or not. If the quicker upgrade works for you, that's stupendous good fortune! Be careful about never saying never.
 
RICHARD5 said:
I appreciate the time you took to write all that. I paid out of pocket for my ratings. By that I mean I saved that amount minus the extra $1,900 in unanticipated costs. Other than the $1,900 I paid off in 2 months, I came out with zero debt. Imagine that, I saved up for it.

As far as "pay as you go", how is that different than going to college? Attending class during the day, working after hours.... Unfortunately these specialized paper mill, er, aviation colleges have set the bar for what it should cost. The attitude that incurring debt in pursuit of ratings is abnormal but has become so commonplace that it is acceptable. Yet it is not the norm. The attitude must be to not incur debt in the first place. Student loans in pursuit of academics at an accredited college is not exactly what I mean since it is not the issue at hand. ER, et al, have 'blended' the ratings and the academics in a somewhat customized bundling and by doing so they have set the price.

I can live on $2K/mo in Honolulu or Los Angeles or Key West. In Key West I can live on a friend's yacht or at a vacant 2nd home. I have done it before and can do it again. I'm just saying the opportunities are there where ever you go.

You bring up a very good point about funding retirement and carrying ins. You are quite right that I am a proponent of that but with the addition that debt is serviced first, then retirement. It may be a juggling act for some amount of time but the goal is to be debt free to allow the others.

Which ever path one takes is right for them. I will not judge another by whether I would follow suit or not. If the quicker upgrade works for you, that's stupendous good fortune! Be careful about never saying never.
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No one likes debt, but it's a necessary part of life. I don't know anyone that "paid" their way through college without help from someone. In college I worked two jobs in the summer and worked during school, that was still just my beer and grocery money though. I took out loans and got help from my parents (and this was a cheap state school).

How long did it take you to save up the $40,000+ for flight training? Unless you're making 60k+ (and if you're in your early 20s making that much, what the hell are you going into aviation for?) it's going to take years to save that up. And if you want to go anywhere in this profession you have to get to a decent airline as soon as possible. My dad was at SWA by the time he was 30 and he was a captain by about 33. That's the only reason he's had a decent ride in this poopy career.
 
greaper007 said:
How long did it take you to save up the $40,000+ for flight training? Unless you're making 60k+ (and if you're in your early 20s making that much, what the hell are you going into aviation for?) it's going to take years to save that up. And if you want to go anywhere in this profession you have to get to a decent airline as soon as possible. My dad was at SWA by the time he was 30 and he was a captain by about 33. That's the only reason he's had a decent ride in this poopy career.
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It's entirely possible (if not likely) that whatever one was doing to make $60k+ at age 20-someodd was either unpleasant, unenjoyable or a combination of both. (Ask me about it.)
 
Autothrust Blue said:
It's entirely possible (if not likely) that whatever one was doing to make $60k+ at age 20-someodd was either unpleasant, unenjoyable or a combination of both. (Ask me about it.)
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I can dig it, I was miserable flying. Still, in my opinion every job, career etc sucks. They're all a means of obtaining money to do things I enjoy. Which is why for most people if you're making really decent money and your job isn't completely egregious, I wouldn't advocate aviation. YMMV

I still contend that it's a rare thing to make enough money in your early 20s to completely pay your way through training in a reasonable time frame, the same with college. I had a couple really decent jobs during college, working construction and at a golf course (15-20 an hour). I still didn't make enough to even pay for tuition during my summer break, it was enough for groceries, rent and beer. If I would have paid my way through college I probably would have taken 7-8 years.
 
RICHARD5 said:
It is understandable when the question is in the context of paying "...what a pilot is worth...". Yet often the context is, "Can I afford to take the position?"

The conundrum many people seem to be faced with is that due to their personal financial situation, they cannot remain afloat if they take many of the positions in this industry. This industry...it is as it is. The peculiar confluence of one's personal situation with the addition they wish to remain active in this industry all too often presents a dismal prospect.

My suggestion is rather than beating your head against the wall of poor pay rates that one spend their energy in retiring their debt. I think of it as a 2nd income: monies not paid out in servicing your debt can be added to your income. Being debt free may allow you to accept $24K/year living in a tropical locale if that's what floats your boat.
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Like this?

HomelessManAndCop-26s608t.jpg
 
greaper007 said:
I can dig it, I was miserable flying. Still, in my opinion every job, career etc sucks. They're all a means of obtaining money to do things I enjoy. Which is why for most people if you're making really decent money and your job isn't completely egregious, I wouldn't advocate aviation. YMMV

I still contend that it's a rare thing to make enough money in your early 20s to completely pay your way through training in a reasonable time frame, the same with college. I had a couple really decent jobs during college, working construction and at a golf course (15-20 an hour). I still didn't make enough to even pay for tuition during my summer break, it was enough for groceries, rent and beer. If I would have paid my way through college I probably would have taken 7-8 years.
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This I buy, and agree with. Different strokes. And yes, my mileage will vary. There are parts of aviation I don't like. There were/are other considerations at play in my own situation, so...

I respectfully submit that it's possible to make large sums of money and still be rather unhappy, but this is a cold :beer: topic that you'd have to fly out to SJC to discuss in person with me.

Debt-free through college and training is not impossible, but it's damned unlikely. I had a few decent jobs as well and managed to make tuition (State university system!) + some flight training. Emphasis on some.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
It's entirely possible (if not likely) that whatever one was doing to make $60k+ at age 20-someodd was either unpleasant, unenjoyable or a combination of both. (Ask me about it.)
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At age 19 I was a shift chemist for a very large conglomerate. Three yrs later I had had enough of being cooped up under the florescent lights and formed my first bona fide business. Fast foward a few decades and a few tangental pursuits and I'm trying to land in a good seat.

Frankly, I'm an idiot when it comes to money but it turns out I'm almost a genius about making wise decisions. A wall is built brick by brick...financial security results from capitilizing on one project after another with the goal of the next supported by the former. This applies at any age.

Flying is a fun pursuit...it hardly can be called work. Getting yourself to a place where you can afford to mix your avocation with your occupation is the overriding goal. I don't intend this to be a boast of my efforts or how I have found fortune in dumb good luck. Trust me, I have endured the • piled higher than I thought it could be piled. All I'm saying is maybe beating your head against a wall is not a good idea. There are things people can control...concentrate on resolving those things.
 
BTW: In 1977 (19 yrs old) I saved $3,000 in less than 5 months making $5.35/hour...a middling wage at that time. Living on my own, paying my own rent, driving my GF's car. She would pick me up in the morning to deposit my asterisk at work, then I would get a ride to college. . In 1994-98 I saved $34K to move to an apt in a stupid town to attend a Pt 141 for Comm ASMEL I. I already had my Pvt SE. Housing + the school + the airport hotel buffet ate that money.
 
Lefty said:
Like this?
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Yeah, exactly like that. /rolls eyes/

I guess we should be talking how the economic model of industry as a whole has changed so dramatically. Oh wait, or maybe it is in response to how society has gone to hell in a hand basket. No matter what the cause, a guy can't get an even break. Is that what you mean?
 
RICHARD5 said:
BTW: In 1977 (19 yrs old) I saved $3,000 in less than 5 months making u$5.35/hour...a middling wage at that time. Living on my own, paying my own rent, driving my GF's car. She would pick me up in the morning to deposit my asterisk at work, then I would get a ride to college. . In 1994-98 I saved $34K to move to an apt in a stupid town to attend a Pt 141 for Comm ASMEL I. I already had my Pvt SE. Housing + the school + the airport hotel buffet ate that money.
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Ok since you threw out some real numbers...what was the cost of tuition,rent,food, gas,insurance, etc backing 1977?

At 19 I made 7 bucks an hour in 2003. Tuition was 140 a credit hour (over 600 now but I don't think it works the same), rent was 400, food (don't remember but I recall getting a footling sub at subway for 5 bucks) gas almost 2 bucks a gallon, insurance for the truck 120 monthly.
 
greaper007 said:
No one likes debt, but it's a necessary part of life. I don't know anyone that "paid" their way through college without help from someone.
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I "paid" my way through college with no help from anyone else, so now you know someone (or know of someone from the "interwebs") who did...

I know, I know, I'm a dinosaur! But in 1977-1981 it was possible to pay your own way through a state school. I worked part-time from my 16th birthday and saved money, then worked part-time while I went to college and lots of hard but well-paying jobs during the summer. I was able to graduate from the University of Illinois with one $2500 loan to my name.

I understand that what I did is not possible now, as I have a son at the U of I. I also understand that very soon after I graduated it was probably not possible.

I don't think people of my generation (I'm 51) understand how crushing education debt can be unless they have college-age children.

My son's maternal great-grandfather went to the University of Illinois for $5 a semester. His maternal grandparents also attended for $50 a semester. When I started in 1977 it was $3000 a semester including room-and-board. His tuition, fees, and room-and-board run roughly $14,000 a semester, and that's for in-state.

Sorry for the thread hijack.


Kevin
 
Here is another aspect of the whole pay thing. First if you can go debt free, awesome. If you can't, just make sure you can manage the debt. In the whole time line thing though, (Doctors and Lawyers. Not education wise, just pay). Let's say that you attend a University first and get your degree in "insert field here" (4 years or so...:-). Then you start working on your flying. On the conservative side I will use 1-2 years (Pvt, Inst, Comm SEL, CFI, CFII). You get hired to teach by a flight school (can go other routes, but just an example). You spend about 2-4 years at the flight school and get your Multi and MEI done. You have started making money teaching, and hopefully have some sort of benefits (medical, dental, maybe more or less).

You now have the times and connections to move up to either a regional or charter (example only). You spend about 2 years (average only) as an FO. Upgrade to Captain and spend maybe 2-3 years to get the PIC multi Turbine time. Now you (hopefully) get hired at a major as an FO and spend many years, but as you move up you start making decent money (relative I know). Not Doctor level or Lawyer level yet, but it is a living.

So I think that is about at the 12- 15 year mark from the time you started your undergrad at a University, college, etc., to the point you are making a livable wage (again subjective) and you are starting to get comfortable. Every company is different and with furloughs, this can and does muddy the waters. But, Is not unreasonable if you are starting from an early age.

For a Doctor, 4 years undergrad (yeah, I started premed and stopped that in a heart beat), 4 years Med school. Now this is just a guess, but 2 years or so Internship, another 3 residency... So 13 years or so there. I am sure there is much more in time, but this was just a ball park time frame.

Lawyer.... 4 years undergrad, 3 years Law School, Internships, New employee stuff, maybe another 5 years or so to climb up a bit.... So 12 years for them to get a bit along in their career..

Maybe more or a bit less for all. But it is going to take time, and effort, and money for all to achieve. It took me 13 years to go from making 27K a year as a new Police Officer in 1993, to a Sergeant making about 75-80 K when I left. But I love this alot more. I go home happy and come to work happy. The other world, not so much. It is just going to take time for all of us to get to where we want to be.

Sorry if I rambled here a bit, ironically, I just had this same conversation with some students last week...
 
staplegun said:
I "paid" my way through college with no help from anyone else, so now you know someone (or know of someone from the "interwebs") who did...

I know, I know, I'm a dinosaur! But in 1977-1981 it was possible to pay your own way through a state school. I worked part-time from my 16th birthday and saved money, then worked part-time while I went to college and lots of hard but well-paying jobs during the summer. I was able to graduate from the University of Illinois with one $2500 loan to my name.

I understand that what I did is not possible now, as I have a son at the U of I. I also understand that very soon after I graduated it was probably not possible.

I don't think people of my generation (I'm 51) understand how crushing education debt can be unless they have college-age children.

My son's maternal great-grandfather went to the University of Illinois for $5 a semester. His maternal grandparents also attended for $50 a semester. When I started in 1977 it was $3000 a semester including room-and-board. His tuition, fees, and room-and-board run roughly $14,000 a semester, and that's for in-state.

Sorry for the thread hijack.


Kevin
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This is very true, and there are many parallels to this in this country, as we have lost our competitive edge to the rest of the world. There is simply not the same opportunity to someone graduating high school today as there was in 1970. Today, everything costs more, and real income hasn't come close to keeping up.

This is what has killed GA. What did a 172 cost in 1970? $20k? What did an average guy make in a year back then? $5k? So, a 172 cost roughly four times an average guy's annual income. Fuel was $.40/gal. What's a 172 cost today? $300k. What's an average guy make today? $30k, maybe $40k. So now, a 172 costs roughly ten times an average guy's annual income. Fuel is $5/gal. Wonder why you see 1/10 the amount of GA activity at any airport across the country?
 
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