"What does it pay?"

[RICHARD5]

It is understandable when the question is in the context of paying "...what a pilot is worth...". Yet often the context is, "Can I afford to take the position?"

The conundrum many people seem to be faced with is that due to their personal financial situation, they cannot remain afloat if they take many of the positions in this industry. This industry...it is as it is. The peculiar confluence of one's personal situation with the addition they wish to remain active in this industry all too often presents a dismal prospect.

My suggestion is rather than beating your head against the wall of poor pay rates that one spend their energy in retiring their debt. I think of it as a 2nd income: monies not paid out in servicing your debt can be added to your income. Being debt free may allow you to accept $24K/year living in a tropical locale if that's what floats your boat.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

It is understandable when the question is in the context of paying "...what a pilot is worth...". Yet often the context is, "Can I afford to take the position?"

The conundrum many people seem to be faced with is that due to their personal financial situation, they cannot remain afloat if they take many of the positions in this industry. This industry...it is as it is. The peculiar confluence of one's personal situation with the addition they wish to remain active in this industry all too often presents a dismal prospect.

My suggestion is rather than beating your head against the wall of poor pay rates that one spend their energy in retiring their debt. I think of it as a 2nd income: monies not paid out in servicing your debt can be added to your income. Being debt free may allow you to accept $24K/year living in a tropical locale if that's what floats your boat.

If your referring to my comment in the JA forum I was just clarifying the amount per flight hour. It was not a personal poke or insult. I know there's lot of bantering back and forth about pay rates and whats acceptable in the industry... I've done my share of arguing on these forums so lately I've been try to shy away from it and keep my more negative feelings and negative posts to myself.

And IMO there's nothing wrong with asking what a company pays as long as it is done politely, since at the end of the day usually the pay is one of the critical points when one is justifying whether or not to apply and/or accept a job.

 

[RICHARD5]

I admit it was your comment in the Martinaire posting...but not as you may think. Your comment just gave me cause to reflect on why people ask about pay rate. I certainly did not intend it personal to you. I agree with your point about asking when it is an inquirey into the company...gathering information.

I've seen too many pilots with high debt load taking crap pay* in the hope it will advance them in this industry. The amount of suffering they attempt to endure is staggering. Many don't make it...because of their debt. Factor that "self-applied weeding out" to the fact that few make it to the top in the majors to see they are reducing the odds in their favor which already are marginal. My advice is to shed debt ASAP.

* An otherwise acceptable pay rate may become "crap pay" precisely and only because of one's debt load. Reducing/retiring debt can act to increase the opportunities one can accept.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Uh. $25k/year for a 1200 hour pilot is an insult regardless of your debt level.

 

[SoonerAv8r]

I don't see too many doctors or lawyers being asked to work for those pay levels. All in all, similar levels of education and training.

 

[ppragman]

Uh. $25k/year for a 1200 hour pilot is an insult regardless of your debt level.

To an extent. I think that's a fair wage for certain "easy" gigs, but you won't catch me working for that much again - even though I did like the company. $40k is about the min.

 

[poser765]

I don't see too many doctors or lawyers being asked to work for those pay levels. All in all, similar levels of education and training.

I used to make this comparison all the time, but now I just don't see how it fits. Granted we are all three professionals that's about where the differences stop. I can take a large chunk of money and go zero to hero in 6 months to a year of a training...and if the time is right have a reasonable assurance that an interview awaits me at the end.

I don't ever see any zero-hero MD programs out there. And from what I understand it's not all Glitter and Unicorns for lawyers out there fresh out of school.

 

[RICHARD5]

Uh. $25k/year for a 1200 hour pilot is an insult regardless of your debt level.

I'm not disagreeing with that. Yet it is what it is and the best any individual can do is cancel their debt. Next step is get into a different industry. That pilots can change the pay structure from the bottom up is as much a myth as Viet Nam pilots retiring = huge pilot shortage. My point is being proactive and gain measureable results for your efforts. Unloading debt pays dividends in every facet of one's life.

 

[averettpilot]

I don't see too many doctors or lawyers being asked to work for those pay levels. All in all, similar levels of education and training.

No way they are similar levels of education and training. There are many professional pilots out there without any form of a degree, probably because it isn't required my a lot of companies. There are NO doctors or lawyers without a degree. That said, pilot's aren't paid appropriately for their training and experience at the lower levels. Some are, most aren't.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

Well look at it the other way... aviation or not... I don't think I would take any job anywhere without knowing what I was going to make on my paycheck...

 

[greaper007]

I'm not disagreeing with that. Yet it is what it is and the best any individual can do is cancel their debt. Next step is get into a different industry. That pilots can change the pay structure from the bottom up is as much a myth as Viet Nam pilots retiring = huge pilot shortage. My point is being proactive and gain measureable results for your efforts. Unloading debt pays dividends in every facet of one's life.

I agree that we should all do whatever we possibly can to lower our debt. But some debt is inescapable for most people who want to pursue careers that require higher education or specialized training. I did my flight training on the super cheap, and it still ended up being about 40,000. This was about 6 years ago, I'm sure it's considerably more now. I'm not sure what job would afford you the time off and pay high enough to to allow someone "pay as you go" on $40,000 worth of debt. For most of us it would probably take the better part of five years to pay as you go while working a full time job, and that's just to get to flight instructor level. At that rate you might hit a regional within 8 years.

Beyond that, even with zero debt it would be difficult for most people to live on 25k a year in an exotic location. Unless that locale was in a third world country. After all, if you're an advocate for reducing your debt you must be an advocate for contributing to your retirement and properly funding things like health insurance. Those two things alone will end up around $650 a month. Good luck finding rent under a thousand dollars a month in most exotic first world locals. That leaves about $433 a month for everything else you need.

I still contend that taking a lower paid position at a company that historically has a quicker upgrade is a decent calculated risk. It's exactly what I did with Colgan, and I upgraded in the same amount of time that it took many people to get off of IOE. I would never take a low paying job just because it was in a cool location though.

 

[seaav8tor]

I don't see too many doctors or lawyers being asked to work for those pay levels. All in all, similar levels of education and training.

In 1986 I sat in a briefing and the question was ask to a senior AF officer ( 1 star ); "Why the commitment was being increased for pilot training. 1 year of pilot training was going to net either 8 or 9 years of service while the medical folks only incurred 1 years of service obligation for each 1 year of med school paid.

The General answered: "The first year of pilot training is 1 million dollars; It is just a fraction of that for 1 year of med school; next question please"

 

[jtrain609]

I don't see too many doctors or lawyers being asked to work for those pay levels. All in all, similar levels of education and training.

It's not NEARLY the same level of education and training, just a similar level of responsibility.

Additionally, many first year associates make well under $50,000 their first few years. It's called paying your dues in that industry.

 

[jcrews]

I don't see too many doctors or lawyers being asked to work for those pay levels. All in all, similar levels of education and training.

You know any doctors or lawyers that finished their education(not icluding undergrad.)/training in 8-10 months? I think there is a large discrepancy between the amount of training and education required to become a lawyer or a doctor and that required to become a pilot. We're all professionals, but I find it hard to compare these professions. I believe that doctors and lawyers pay their dues in different ways than pilots do. With a wife finishing up med school and a best friend finishing up a law degree, both in the next 3 weeks, I think I can speak for both sides.

Just opinion and it's worth as much as I'm selling it for.:crazy:

 

[C-182 flyer]

I don't see too many doctors or lawyers being asked to work for those pay levels. All in all, similar levels of education and training.

How can medical and law school be compared to a civilian flight school? For the first two, you have to bust your butt to get the grades to even be accepted into either medical or law school, and them bust your butt to make it through those schools, which is years and hours of studying later. Then you have specialization and continued education, etc. Or you can go to a civilian flight school, be done in less than a year or so, and as long as you have the money, you probably will not flunk out at most places. Then, how much continued education is really require once you have all the certificates?

I am pretty sure that most people who have wanted an airline job over the years, were looking for the chance of making a nice living without having to work very hard, not for the challenge of flying an airliner. Become a doctor or lawyer, and you will have the challenge of saving lives or winning court cases or whatever other direction you take within the career field for the rest of your life. That was my motivation before joining the military, but maybe I am just lazy.

 

[Mike H]

I don't see too many doctors or lawyers being asked to work for those pay levels. All in all, similar levels of education and training.

They are, only they're not being asked, they're being told. True, most people don't "see it", but if you know what to look at, you can see it.

And, btw, there is no comparrison of the levels of education & training between doctors and pilots- none. Lawyers; you can make a very good argument, but not doctors. Not by a damn sight

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I don't see too many doctors or lawyers being asked to work for those pay levels. All in all, similar levels of education and training.

Yeah, no. Nice idea. But, no.

First off, it's certainly not the same level of education. Second off, there are lots of them working arguably far below what they're worth in the early stages of their career.

Most importantly, I didn't have to apply for flight school. They'll take anyone who will pay. Med schools generally don't. Law schools neither.

Or, at least, some semblance (or appearance) of academic or meritorious acceptance is preserved by the medical and legal communities and enforced through the MCAT and LSAT along with attention paid to undergraduate grades. Granted, this isn't always true for law school, but it's almost always true for medical school. (I have a friend who is in the tail end of the med school admissions process. I will gladly stick to aviation and all it entails, thanks!)

(I would be all in favor of making ours a more med-school like process, but to say that the "system" of pilot certification and experience-building compares at all to the medical profession's system is foolish indeed.)

 

[Boris Badenov]

If a medical analogy is absolutely necessary, it's a lot more like nursing, really. Although even that is more selective for entrance. Now, interestingly, nurses still make considerably more money to start than pilots.

 

[averettpilot]

In 1986 I sat in a briefing and the question was ask to a senior AF officer ( 1 star ); "Why the commitment was being increased for pilot training. 1 year of pilot training was going to net either 8 or 9 years of service while the medical folks only incurred 1 years of service obligation for each 1 year of med school paid.

The General answered: "The first year of pilot training is 1 million dollars; It is just a fraction of that for 1 year of med school; next question please"

You're talking about a government operation where toilet seats cost $400. I'm also sure burning all those dinosaurs ain't cheap.

 

[RICHARD5]

How can medical and law school be compared to a civilian flight school?

One, look who's doing the comparing. That makes it tantamount to illegals saying they are just as good as the AWG. Of course they'll say that. Uh oh....