Weirdest reason for busting a checkride

After all being said here by me (not to change my comments) but, I do agree that if it was a one time little "hickup" that the bust may be a little extreme...
 
\
ryan1234 said:
Yeah... distractions kill people... like looking down at a piece of paper while you're trying to enter an unfamilar pattern. What was the aircraft anyways? A light retract single...? descent/landing checklist isn't exactly a crew required procedure all that matters is the gear is down and fuel valve/situation is on the best position for landing.. the rest is all still flying semantics (prop, mix, etc) . Maybe the emphasis should be on actually flying the airplane.
Click to expand...

:clap:
 
JDP said:
I didn't get a bust but got a scolding on a checkride for not having two pencil/pens on my multi-comm. He asked if I had two I said no only one. The next question was like well what if you drop that one. I wanted to be like well i'm just not gonna write it down retard. Wasn't the greatest of starts to a checkride
Click to expand...

that's some seriously dangerous behavior there!

I did chastise my student today about pens. He keeps bringing a liquid ink pen with us and I know one day its going to explode and that will certainly kill us.

On a serious note, all my students use single sheet checklists. One side for normal ops, the other for emergencies and I have them leave it on top of everything. That way they can take a quick glance when needed and don't have to fumble around to find it. If you've got more that one sheet of paper's worth of checklist items on a GA plane, your probably doing it wrong. Regardless, it sounds like your guy got burned our we don't know the whole story.

Was it maybe that he was so talk loaded and overwhelmed by the pattern entry that he couldn't manage to complete a checklist and still teach/demonstrate?
 
Codyjp said:
Was it maybe that he was so talk loaded and overwhelmed by the pattern entry that he couldn't manage to complete a checklist and still teach/demonstrate?
Click to expand...

I don't think so. At least that's not the way he or the inspector portrayed it to me. It sounds exactly like a simple error of getting busy and not reading the checklist after doing the items.

The thing that ticks me off is that I doubt the feds could pass their own checkride. Reality is that anyone can pick anyone's flying apart if they go at it long enough.

The inspector who gave the ride tried to tell my guy that CFIs are required to keep a record of flight reviews and endorsements given. He didn't understand how the IACRA system works. He didn't understand what endorsements are needed to take a CFI ride. He didn't even know that another 8710 application is needed for a retest after failure!

I don't really care, I'm not out to get the inspector and tell him he's a bad fed for not knowing these things. But it's proof that nobody is perfect. If one fed gave another fed a checkride, he'd never pass. You can always find *something* to bust a person on.
 
I have been doing CFI rides for a while now. Our flight school had a sit down meeting with a few of the FSDO GA inspectors from IND FSDO last year. They told us about common threads with recent failures and things they will start failing people for. One of them was usage of checklist. For every phase of the flight the checklist must be used or it is a bust. Other busts would be not having lesson plans for each special emphasis items. They failed one guy for not having a lesson plan pre-done on runway incursions. He showed them visual scanning/ collision avoidance....not good enough. Initiation of various stalls have been bad such as setting up for cross controlled, power off, power on, and accelerated. Lots of fails for that. Short field landings are another big fail due to people "dragging in the airplane", they want a higher than normal stabilized descent.

Also they are failing guys for not knowing various FAA docs other than the FAR's such as a form 337 and the FAA order 8900. There is one inspector there who will takeoff his seat belt before landing and fail people for not briefing to fasten seat belts before landing. One person failed for not briefing how and when to use the fire extinguisher on board the aircraft.
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
I'm a DE and a CFI and have some airline experience.... and think you need to re think your approach here
Click to expand...

Sorry I'm late to the discussion, have been moving and preparing for a new job. I've read through the thread so I know this is a little step back in the conversation; and, it's good to see you are open to modifying your opinion. First, welcome to JC.

It will be nice to have another viewpoint in the discussions. While you may be a DPE (and CFI by default of the requirements) and have some airline experience it, of course, does not make you worldly. You will see from other threads that JRH is one of the more dedicated CFIs out there.Asking him to rethink his approach is sweet, but most likely not necessary.

On a personal note, your online persona diction makes you seem younger than I would expect, especially for having been in aviation for a relatively short time (from what I read). I'm curious, can you give us a ball park of your age (ie 25-35, 35-45)? I'm just asking because I usually don't see DPEs under 50ish, or DPEs over 50 that participate in internet forums.
 
Codyjp said:
If you've got more that one sheet of paper's worth of checklist items on a GA plane, your probably doing it wrong.
Click to expand...
Agreed! When I teach at UND we have the 19-page "Cessna 172 Checklist and Quick Reference Handbook" that we use for everything. When I rent an identical G1000 172 from my home FBO or Fargo Jet Center, I use a 1-page Checkmate checklist and somehow the plane doesn't fall from the sky.
 
For most GA single's CIGARS and C-GUMPS seems to wok pretty well for me. And in my review of the checklist for a DA-20, C-172 and PA-28 CIGARS and C-GUMPS does cover all of the main checklist items.

Plus there is also the golden rule of aviation: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Checklist
 
moxiepilot said:
Sorry I'm late to the discussion, have been moving and preparing for a new job. I've read through the thread so I know this is a little step back in the conversation; and, it's good to see you are open to modifying your opinion. First, welcome to JC.

It will be nice to have another viewpoint in the discussions. While you may be a DPE (and CFI by default of the requirements) and have some airline experience it, of course, does not make you worldly. You will see from other threads that JRH is one of the more dedicated CFIs out there.Asking him to rethink his approach is sweet, but most likely not necessary.

On a personal note, your online persona diction makes you seem younger than I would expect, especially for having been in aviation for a relatively short time (from what I read). I'm curious, can you give us a ball park of your age (ie 25-35, 35-45)? I'm just asking because I usually don't see DPEs under 50ish, or DPEs over 50 that participate in internet forums.
Click to expand...

Just turned 36, been a dpe for 4 years, cfi for 10 years, flying since I was a boy. Also been a chef, manager, auto mechanic and nail pounder! Just because someone is dedicated doesn't mean that an occasional re-think of your philosophies and actions isn't warranted. I wonder, how many in here have done any actual Human Factors studies and research. After all, don't we all parrot the mantra "license to keep learning"? As long as I've been doing this, and plenty of real world work and over 3000 hrs of dual given, I still challenge myself to not get locked into my own little box of thinking.....
 
jdlilfan said:
I have been doing CFI rides for a while now. Our flight school had a sit down meeting with a few of the FSDO GA inspectors from IND FSDO last year. They told us about common threads with recent failures and things they will start failing people for. One of them was usage of checklist. For every phase of the flight the checklist must be used or it is a bust. Other busts would be not having lesson plans for each special emphasis items. They failed one guy for not having a lesson plan pre-done on runway incursions. He showed them visual scanning/ collision avoidance....not good enough. Initiation of various stalls have been bad such as setting up for cross controlled, power off, power on, and accelerated. Lots of fails for that. Short field landings are another big fail due to people "dragging in the airplane", they want a higher than normal stabilized descent.

Also they are failing guys for not knowing various FAA docs other than the FAR's such as a form 337 and the FAA order 8900. There is one inspector there who will takeoff his seat belt before landing and fail people for not briefing to fasten seat belts before landing. One person failed for not briefing how and when to use the fire extinguisher on board the aircraft.
Click to expand...

Something all of us in here should remember. Just, like any test, one should know what to expect and show up prepared!
The PTS is very clear in defining satisfactory vs unsatisfactory performance, covering all areas of operations with special emphasis items, checklist usage one of them. To the letter of the pts, an applicant who forgets to read a printed checklis after performing a flow or not is a perfectly legitimate bust. We all have enough real world experience to know that reality and testing are often different. However, a test is a test and if you show up prepared and know what to expect, then these types of discussions are really moot, as it applies to taking a practical test! If you've ever taken a college algebra or trig test and failed an equation that you previously aced, you know you can do it right, but never the less, you missed it on the test! FAA practical tests are not percentage based tests, they are pass or fail, period.

Just some FYI for you all, new PTS are on their way and in the back there is what is called a judgement assessment matrix. THis matrix is based on SRM that is now included in each task of the instrument pts and soon to be in all PTS. THis matrix is what an examiner is required to use for assessing pass/fail for each area of operation. I suggest to all cfi's that I work with to become familiar with this matrix and use it themselves as a teaching and evaluation tool.

I'm not so closed off and new to the real world of flying that I don't understand that everyone can have a bad day and that no one has a perfect day. THe reality of a test, as one much wiser than I stated to me once, is like this..."you get what you get on test day, I only get one chance to evaluate someone. He may have killed everyone today, flew perfect yesterday and an ace tomorrow, but you get what you get on test day...that's the dirty of it".....

se la vie...
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
Just turned 36, been a dpe for 4 years, cfi for 10 years, flying since I was a boy. Also been a chef, manager, auto mechanic and nail pounder! Just because someone is dedicated doesn't mean that an occasional re-think of your philosophies and actions isn't warranted. I wonder, how many in here have done any actual Human Factors studies and research. After all, don't we all parrot the mantra "license to keep learning"? As long as I've been doing this, and plenty of real world work and over 3000 hrs of dual given, I still challenge myself to not get locked into my own little box of thinking.....
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. You're at a pretty impressive stage of your career to be where you're at at your age (and I don't say that condescendingly). Again, welcome to JC and have fun here
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top