Weirdest reason for busting a checkride

jrh

jrh

Well-Known Member
One of my clients busted his initial flight instructor checkride today. All because he didn't read the descent or before landing checklist. He *did* the checklists, but he didn't actually pull out the card and *read* the checklists.

I've already spoken with the examiner and he said the rest of the checkride went great. My client did fine during the 6 hour oral. He nailed the maneuvers and did a great job of teaching in the airplane.

Now I have to go fly around the pattern with this 600 hour commercial pilot for half an hour to make sure he can read a flippin' card.

Oh, and he had done great in training...we never really talked about checklist usage because he already did it.

I'm not saying the bust isn't valid. Checklist usage is clearly in the PTS.

But I'm still having a hard time understanding how busting this guy accomplished anything. It's not like habits can be changed during half an hour of training. It's not like the guy didn't have a correct understanding of a task, or was incapable of performing a task. And it's not like we're going to do anything amazingly new during our retraining flight. Hell, if the inspector had just said, "You need to read the checklist," and let the guy go around the pattern one more time, it would have saved us all a ton of work.

What a crappy reason for busting. :banghead:

</rant>
 
jrh said:
One of my clients busted his initial flight instructor checkride today. All because he didn't read the descent or before landing checklist. He *did* the checklists, but he didn't actually pull out the card and *read* the checklists.

I've already spoken with the examiner and he said the rest of the checkride went great. My client did fine during the 6 hour oral. He nailed the maneuvers and did a great job of teaching in the airplane.

Now I have to go fly around the pattern with this 600 hour commercial pilot for half an hour to make sure he can read a flippin' card.

Oh, and he had done great in training...we never really talked about checklist usage because he already did it.

I'm not saying the bust isn't valid. Checklist usage is clearly in the PTS.

But I'm still having a hard time understanding how busting this guy accomplished anything. It's not like habits can be changed during half an hour of training. It's not like the guy didn't have a correct understanding of a task, or was incapable of performing a task. And it's not like we're going to do anything amazingly new during our retraining flight. Hell, if the inspector had just said, "You need to read the checklist," and let the guy go around the pattern one more time, it would have saved us all a ton of work.

What a crappy reason for busting. :banghead:

</rant>
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Im a big checklist nut, but busting a checkride for lack of usage is silly. A talking to would have been more effective In my opinion.

At 600 hours if hes not going to use a checklist on a checkride, hes not going to use one in every flying. Maybe a bust is one way to tell a 600 hour pilot that he is not to good for checklists?

I would be bummed as his CFI, And I would have been bummed if I was the one that busted.
 
Did he verify the checklist and just not read it? If so I would have flipped the poop. If not then it's item 11 in the PTS under special emphasis items. I would have busted him if I was in the DE's shoes also.
 
Fly_Unity said:
At 600 hours if hes not going to use a checklist on a checkride, hes not going to use one in every flying. Maybe a bust is one way to tell a 600 hour pilot that he is not to good for checklists?
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No, that's what ticks me off. The guy really did/does use a printed checklist in his everyday flying. I saw him use it over and over while I was training him.

And he used it throughout his checkride up until the point at which he busted.

He just got distracted. The examiner asked him to teach how to enter the pattern and land at an untowered airport. He got so busy teaching as he entered the pattern that he never looked down at the checklist.

I don't know what the inspector expects of a checkride. Perfection, I suppose :rolleyes:
 
jhugz said:
Did he verify the checklist and just not read it? If so I would have flipped the poop. If not then it's item 11 in the PTS under special emphasis items. I would have busted him if I was in the DE's shoes also.
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He did the items from memory but did not verify them using a printed checklist. You're right, it's a special emphasis item and a valid bust. I'm not disagreeing with that.

The problem I have with the situation is that it's a big waste of everyone's time and accomplishes virtually nothing to bust him, retrain him, and recheck him when checklist usage is the *only* thing the examiner could find a fault with.

If the examiner had said, "I had to bust him because he couldn't do a lazy eight to save his life, and he wasn't very careful about using the checklist either," I'd be totally fine with it. That's something worth spending some time retraining.

Let me ask you this--if you had been the inspector and busted this guy, what would you have been expecting to accomplish? What is it about busting, taking a 30 minute flight with an instructor, then going for another lap around the pattern with an inspector, that proves the applicant is a significantly better pilot in the long run?

If I could, my retraining would consist of asking the guy, "What should you do with a checklist? Read it? Ok, good, let's go fill out your 8710," and be done with it. Unfortunately I'm required to actually log at least 0.1 hours of flight training with him before I can sign him off for the retest.
 
jrh said:
No, that's what ticks me off. The guy really did/does use a printed checklist in his everyday flying. I saw him use it over and over while I was training him.

And he used it throughout his checkride up until the point at which he busted.

He just got distracted. The examiner asked him to teach how to enter the pattern and land at an untowered airport. He got so busy teaching as he entered the pattern that he never looked down at the checklist.

I don't know what the inspector expects of a checkride. Perfection, I suppose :rolleyes:
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Distractions kill people.....and a CFI is responsible to teach not only academically, but also by example, if a student watches him demonstrate something and he doesn't use a checklist, he then gives the student the idea that it's "okay" to skip it in this case. Remember the law of primacy.....Checklist usage in a single pilot op is one that has to be examined with discretion. A normal pattern entry, he shouldn't be so busy that he forgets a checklist, now in an emergency, depending on the situaion, a flow may be apporopriate when reading a checklist may be detrimental. If a guy gets out a checklist and goes heads down when I pull an engine on him on upwind, thats a bust, that should be a flow......

I'm a DE and a CFI and have some airline experience.... and think you need to re think your approach here
 
jrh said:
He did the items from memory but did not verify them using a printed checklist. You're right, it's a special emphasis item and a valid bust. I'm not disagreeing with that.

The problem I have with the situation is that it's a big waste of everyone's time and accomplishes virtually nothing to bust him, retrain him, and recheck him when checklist usage is the *only* thing the examiner could find a fault with.

If the examiner had said, "I had to bust him because he couldn't do a lazy eight to save his life, and he wasn't very careful about using the checklist either," I'd be totally fine with it. That's something worth spending some time retraining.

Let me ask you this--if you had been the inspector and busted this guy, what would you have been expecting to accomplish? What is it about busting, taking a 30 minute flight with an instructor, then going for another lap around the pattern with an inspector, that proves the applicant is a significantly better pilot in the long run?

If I could, my retraining would consist of asking the guy, "What should you do with a checklist? Read it? Ok, good, let's go fill out your 8710," and be done with it. Unfortunately I'm required to actually log at least 0.1 hours of flight training with him before I can sign him off for the retest.
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Waste of time??? OMG dude....I would have busted him for traffic pattern entry in the airport ops area of operation with a note added about checklist usage. This is much more important than you are realizing. This is about a habit and ensuring that the guy will teach a newbie properly and lead by example. It appears that you have been a little slack in providing that example yourself. Your retraining should actually be a test in itself. Make the guy teach you a pattern, and you should pick it apart with a fine toothed comb, right down to how/when he calls for and uses a checklist. IMHO
 
Zfuzz,
Welcome to JC. Did I see on your profile you worked for Mesa? Seemed like it did for a minute. So you went from being a DPE making big bucks to Mesa? Or were you a 141 DE for a puppy mill? Really curious as to why someone would go DPE to any airline.
 
Never worked for Mesa, lived in Mesa, was at a regional a few years back, and became a DPE while there, but NOT mesa!! DPE not about bucks (tho it is nice)! Would still be there if it weren't for a minor medical issue at the time.....no worries now.
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
Waste of time??? OMG dude....I would have busted him for traffic pattern entry in the airport ops area of operation with a note added about checklist usage. This is much more important than you are realizing. This is about a habit and ensuring that the guy will teach a newbie properly and lead by example. It appears that you have been a little slack in providing that example yourself. Your retraining should actually be a test in itself. Make the guy teach you a pattern, and you should pick it apart with a fine toothed comb, right down to how/when he calls for and uses a checklist. IMHO
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Meh....I think if the student showed doing the checkride that he is a safe and effective instructor, there are less damaging ways to make a point. Like the cliche goes, it's a ticket to learn.

BTW, welcome. It's good to have a perspective from a DPE.
 
Thanks...good to be here. From my perspective its not just to make a point. An effective instuctor leads and demonstrates by example. I know the particular FSDO in question here and they are really big on checklist usage. I guess in reality, I may not have busted him on the same unless he showed consistency in not using it. I do CFI rides (not initials) and I can tell you that the current view of a "safe and effective"( in the instuctor community and new generation of pilot) instructor has certainly changed over the last 5 years. I've been a cfi for almost 10 years and flying since I was old enough to reach the pedals and there's a huge difference in attitude today thatn even just 12 years abo when I got my private....
 
eh, JRH is too nice when he talks about that FSDO, here and in real life.

My opinion about that FSDO is that he had a pink slip when we walked in the door.

I've never sent a student there and won't.
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
From my perspective its not just to make a point. An effective instuctor leads and demonstrates by example. I know the particular FSDO in question here and they are really big on checklist usage. I guess in reality, I may not have busted him on the same unless he showed consistency in not using it.
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I don't think you will find any argument with what you said. However, in this situation, and I use caution since I wasn't there to see what exactly happened, I fail to see how his actions prohibited him from showing he could lead and demonstrate by example. He properly demonstrated every required maneuver and he did indeed do the checklists. Yes he forgot to read the checklist, but is there any other evidence to suggest he is or would be an irresponsible instructor? Personally, I think it would reasonable to look at the big picture and overlook this.

Of course, this is coming from an instructor's perspective. ;)
 
Ziggyfuzz said:
Checklist usage in a single pilot op is one that has to be examined with discretion.
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Exactly. Discretion.

Ziggyfuzz said:
A normal pattern entry, he shouldn't be so busy that he forgets a checklist, now in an emergency, depending on the situaion, a flow may be apporopriate when reading a checklist may be detrimental. If a guy gets out a checklist and goes heads down when I pull an engine on him on upwind, thats a bust, that should be a flow......
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...according to you. This is my point. I think the whole situation is a gray area that's open to interpretations and misunderstandings. I don't see anything productive coming from this guy's bust. He should've been talked to about it and allowed to pass. Busting him for this and this alone is a waste of everyone's time.

Ziggyfuzz said:
I'm a DE and a CFI and have some airline experience.... and think you need to re think your approach here
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I appreciate your experience and I'm glad to see another person getting involved in the forum here, but I respectfully disagree.
 
Douglas said:
eh, JRH is too nice when he talks about that FSDO, here and in real life.

My opinion about that FSDO is that he had a pink slip when we walked in the door.
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I've had nothing but good experiences with all the inspectors there up to this point. I wasn't surprised to hear my guy busted, simply because it's such a long and complicated ride with so many potential areas to screw up, but I was surprised to hear what he busted for. This was the first CFI applicant I'd sent over there.

I'm sending another initial CFI applicant there next week. If and how he busts will go a long way towards shaping my opinion of their CFI rides.

I'm seriously considering having them give me a CFI ride for my CFI renewal this year, too. I'd like to see the process first hand for myself so I better now how to train people for it.
 
It might seem trivial that he got busted for not physically looking at his checklist, but to me its legit for a couple reasons.

1) Cooperate, graduate. You're on a checkride. Its no secret that they're expecting you to use a checklist. Fail due to "duh".
2) Anyone can memorize a flow pattern. The checklist is there to make sure you didn't screw it up. If anybody thinks they're not going to forget something someday, they're lying.
3) As a flight instructor you need to set a good example for your students. If they see you flying without a checklist, they're not going to do it.
 
jrh said:
The examiner asked him to teach how to enter the pattern and land at an untowered airport. He got so busy teaching as he entered the pattern that he never looked down at the checklist.
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Sounds like he was busted for not teaching the checklist.
 
Ok, so like I've said all along...the bust is legit. I'm not saying they busted him for something outside the scope of the PTS, or treated him unfairly.

What I'm saying is, what does this all accomplish? If a person busts on the oral exam, it's because they don't have a good enough academic understanding of a topic. If they don't perform a maneuver correctly or safely, that's a clear cut reason with a clear cut way of retraining them.

In this case, I'm at a loss of what the retraining is going to do, other than waste everyone's time. Heck, I probably could probably pencil whip the flight (not that I will!), tell the guy to make sure to use the checklist, and have him pass his retest with flying colors.

Does nobody else here see what a bunch of paperwork and bureaucracy this whole mess is? It's simply not needed.
 
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