Weight And Balance Issues in the Majors?

MFT1Air

Well-Known Member
Exclusive: American Eagle Investigated for 'Weight and Balance' Violations, Sources Say
FAA Said to Find Numerous Violations, Posing Possible Safety Risks


By ERIC LONGABARDI and JOSEPH RHEE
October 1, 2008
An investigation by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has found that American Eagle, the commuter airline, has repeatedly flown passsenger planes that have been overloaded or improperly balanced, posing a potential safety hazard, people in the aviation industry have told ABC News.
Here's the link:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/Travel/story?id=5930615&page=1


Rather disconcerting to hear about this if in fact the allegations are true.
 

MFT1Air

Well-Known Member
I have been on multiple RJ flights where they have had to ask people to move forward due to W&B is not correct.
. . .and that elevates my comfort level knowing you actually do you're supposed to do. I've been on airlines that actually off-loaded fuel because of weight issues. I've always made the assumption it was done. . .ALL the time.
 

SierraPilot123

Well-Known Member
. . .and that elevates my comfort level knowing you actually do you're supposed to do. I've been on airlines that actually off-loaded fuel because of weight issues. I've always made the assumption it was done. . .ALL the time.
We have to move people all the time for WB on the EMB-120. The gate agents book everyone to the back on our aft galley planes for some odd reason. You pretty much have to fill the front seat in an aft galley to be with in the CG limits.

In these small regional planes every person is applying more moment (leverage) than a larger aircraft.

We even add ballast from time to time to the cargo area to make it work out.

But I have NEVER myself or have seen a captain take off out of CG or above legal weight.
 

zmiller4

Well-Known Member

Rather disconcerting to hear about this if in fact the allegations are true.


I wouldn't be overly concerned about it. I don't know the specifics of this case, but when the Feds say "overweight" "out of balance" they might be talking about literally a couple of pounds or a couple of percentage points of index (CG). While that's obviously not good, it's not going to bring down an airplane.

The fact of the matter is that mistakes are occasionally made with weight and balance, either by the crew or by whoever is entering numbers into the computer. We all work to minimize that, but it happens at every airline...there's no culture of cheating the numbers at Eagle.
 

JaceTheAce

Well-Known Member
I have the F/A move people from the front row to the back all the time. I don't know why they think the front is better. It's not like it matters if they get off the plane faster - they're just gonna have to wait another 5 minutes outside anyway with all the other people for their side-checked bags. All the way in the back are the best seats in the Dash 8! Much quieter.
 

Nick

Well-Known Member



Rather disconcerting to hear about this if in fact the allegations are true.


I guarantee they are not the only contract carrier where that happens occasionally, unfortunately.

There are pilots out there who are willing to whip up a certain number of half weights (children) on the pax sheet in order to get everybody on. It's not like they are going to have some kind retribution against them personally if the weight restriction means that a few pax don't get on, so I really do not understand why they are like that. It is not the fault of the crew that the circumstances are such that not all of the people who want to get on, can get on.

There is no need to fudge the numbers.
 

Gonzo

Well-Known Member
I guarantee they are not the only contract carrier where that happens occasionally, unfortunately.

There are pilots out there who are willing to whip up a certain number of half weights (children) on the pax sheet in order to get everybody on. It's not like they are going to have some kind retribution against them personally if the weight restriction means that a few pax don't get on, so I really do not understand why they are like that. It is not the fault of the crew that the circumstances are such that not all of the people who want to get on, can get on.

There is no need to fudge the numbers.
The thing is we (Eagle pilots) don't do anything with the W&B. The FA gives us the count and as long as it is the same as we get from ACARS we are good to go. We get all numbers from ACARS.

"When you talk about the performance for weight and balance it is critical, it will get you killed, which is why it's so strictly controlled" said Jack Eppard of the Air Line Pilots Association.
DW getting his name in the news.
 

JaceTheAce

Well-Known Member
I honestly doubt the accuracy of ANY W/B since pax weights are assumed to be 184 in the summer and 189 in the winter. What happens when the majority of the passengers are from Mississippi? (the most obese state in the USA)...compared to Colorado? (the least obese state in the USA).
 

wheelsup

Well-Known Member
The ironic thing about this is that different operators flying the same plane have different ways of calculating the w&b. One may be outside parameters using their method while the other is legally within CG. There are significant margins of error built into those programs IMO. It's funny nick thinks it is wrong to fudge numbers, what the heck do you think the "real" numbers are"?!? They are completely fabricated. Ironic really.
 

ComplexHiAv8r

Well-Known Member
It's funny nick thinks it is wrong to fudge numbers, what the heck do you think the "real" numbers are"?!? They are completely fabricated. Ironic really.
Would it be appropriate to say on the internet what weights are used for the W&B on the aircraft? Is is by manufacturer or does each airline determine these weight?
 

v1valarob

Well-Known Member
On the saab we might as well not even give out seat numbers unless there are more than 15 on the flight. We move them all to the back anyway.

I often wonder if airlines could save money on fuel if they actually weighed each person, and if they gave us the actual weights of the bags and figured out our performance based on that.
 

wheelsup

Well-Known Member
Would it be appropriate to say on the internet what weights are used for the W&B on the aircraft? Is is by manufacturer or does each airline determine these weight?
I'm not sure what the specific number is but someone posted above 184 lbs for summer 189 lbs for winter, not sure if that's right or not, I honestly don't know. I just put the people in the acars and see what it spits out.
 

v1valarob

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what the specific number is but someone posted above 184 lbs for summer 189 lbs for winter, not sure if that's right or not, I honestly don't know. I just put the people in the acars and see what it spits out.
Thats about right. I just look at the chart thats on my clipboard. Some of us dont have the luxury of ACARS. ;-D

It also depends on if you have a carry on program or not. Our Saabs don't, so its the 184/189, but then the Q400 has higher weights because people can actually bring baggage on board with them, and thats counted in that #.
 

Polar742

All the responsibility none of the authority
I'd like to thank the FAA for making the information discussed above publicly available:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...1b8fb9582862570220064e03c/$FILE/AC120-27E.pdf

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...d4b07ddb886257427005781a6/$FILE/AC 20-161.pdf

Weight and balance errors found by the FAA are usually found when auditing "paperwork" (could be electronically transmitted and stored) during oversight checks.

Always make sure the "i"'s are dotted and "t"s crossed when you send paperwork out the door.
 

ppragman

FLIPY FLAPS!
I'd like to thank the FAA for making the information discussed above publicly available:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...1b8fb9582862570220064e03c/$FILE/AC120-27E.pdf

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...d4b07ddb886257427005781a6/$FILE/AC 20-161.pdf

Weight and balance errors found by the FAA are usually found when auditing "paperwork" (could be electronically transmitted and stored) during oversight checks.

Always make sure the "i"'s are dotted and "t"s crossed when you send paperwork out the door.

About 3 years ago, I read an article about a system that was attached to the mains that could weigh the airplane on the ramp and determine whether or not it was within limits, any info on that out their?
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
About 3 years ago, I read an article about a system that was attached to the mains that could weigh the airplane on the ramp and determine whether or not it was within limits, any info on that out their?

never seen it myself, but thinking creatively, i dont see how a device like that would be much different from a 18-wheeler weigh station. seems like it would be easy to adapt/engineer based on existing devices.
 

MFT1Air

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't be overly concerned about it. I don't know the specifics of this case, but when the Feds say "overweight" "out of balance" they might be talking about literally a couple of pounds or a couple of percentage points of index (CG). While that's obviously not good, it's not going to bring down an airplane.

The fact of the matter is that mistakes are occasionally made with weight and balance, either by the crew or by whoever is entering numbers into the computer. We all work to minimize that, but it happens at every airline...there's no culture of cheating the numbers at Eagle.
Thanks. I'm feeling better already. :bandit:
 
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