VFR transition Class D reporting IFR

[NovemberEcho]

Looking for a reference so I can prove my supervisor wrong.

Class d airport reporting IFR. VFR wants to transition the Delta. Sup says he can’t do it without a SVFR clearance. I say bull so long as he can maintain VFR (example field is socked in with fog but tops are 500’)

 

[bimmerphile]

If it's ground fog, and the aircraft has the flight visibility and can maintain the Class D cloud clearance requirements, I'd say it's not required. VFR is predicated on flight visibility, not ground, which is up to the pilot not ATC. 91.155/91.157

 

[milleR]

What he said ^^

14 CFR 91.155 - Basic VFR weather minimums.

 

[NovemberEcho]

If it's ground fog, and the aircraft has the flight visibility and can maintain the Class D cloud clearance requirements, I'd say it's not required. VFR is predicated on flight visibility, not ground, which is up to the pilot not ATC. 91.155/91.157

That’s what I’m saying. But he is saying essentially that since the field is IFR he can’t allow someone VFR to transition the Delta without a SVFR clearance. I’m trying to find a reference to show him he’s wrong but I cant because the .65 doesn’t tell you all the stuff you CAN do.

Imo so long as the pilot says he can maintain VFR than he’s allowed to transjstjkn the airspace irregardless of what the weather at the airport is.

 

[milleR]

irregardless

#triggered

 

[bimmerphile]

You guys ask if aircraft can maintain VFR when under your control, in whatever category of airspace they're flying through, correct? How is it any different for Class D? If EWR is reporting 600/600/600 fog, sky clear, you don't let VFR transitions through the Bravo?

 

[Roger Roger]

I don’t know bout that, even for transitions our tower treats the airspace as closed if it’s below 3 SM.

 

[bimmerphile]

91.155 part D
(d) Except as provided in § 91.157 of this part, no person may take off or land an aircraft, or enter the traffic pattern of an airport, underVFR, within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport -

(1) Unless ground visibility at that airport is at least 3 statute miles; or

(2) If ground visibility is not reported at that airport, unless flight visibility during landing or takeoff, or while operating in the traffic pattern is at least 3 statute miles.

If you're not entering the traffic pattern to land, ground vis is irrelevant

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

It sounds like a bit of confusion over what 91.155(c) says...

(c) Except as provided in § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft beneath the ceiling under VFR within the lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet.

91.157 is the rule about special VFR. Kind of sounds like someone is reading the rule without the words "beneath the ceiling."

 

[NovemberEcho]

It sounds like a bit of confusion over what 91.155(c) says...

(c) Except as provided in § 91.157, no person may operate an aircraft beneath the ceiling under VFR within the lateral boundaries of controlled airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less than 1,000 feet.

91.157 is the rule about special VFR. Kind of sounds like someone is reading the rule without the words "beneath the ceiling."

I quoted this exact passage to him this morning

 

[bimmerphile]

I have a phone number for your sup, advise ready to copy...

 

[NovemberEcho]

I have a phone number for your sup, advise ready to copy...

There’s another guy who is an ex tower controller (and there’s a huge debate thread on some ATC forums about this) and he also says it’s not allowed. They say how are they supposed to seperate their IFR traffic from a VFR transition they can’t see.

 

[Roger Roger]

Like I said, the reg may say one thing but most of the time it’s treated as the whole airspace.

 

[bimmerphile]

Hmm, well that's different and I don't have the .65 knowledge you all do. If there's no IFR traffic to protect then no problems mon, but I guess it depends on the vertical/lateral separation for arrivals and the missed. Class D example is trickier just because of the small airspace. But would you really deny VFR traffic going through a Bravo shelf because the primary airport is reporting fog?

 

[NovemberEcho]

Hmm, well that's different and I don't have the .65 knowledge you all do. If there's no IFR traffic to protect then no problems mon, but I guess it depends on the vertical/lateral separation for arrivals and the missed. Class D example is trickier just because of the small airspace. But would you really deny VFR traffic going through a Bravo shelf because the primary airport is reporting fog?

It only applies to surface areas, but no.

 

[bimmerphile]

It only applies to surface areas, but no.

woops, not like I just quoted it twice. My mistake.
What are the popular ATC forums?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I quoted this exact passage to him this morning

...and what passage did he quote to you?

There’s another guy who is an ex tower controller (and there’s a huge debate thread on some ATC forums about this) and he also says it’s not allowed. They say how are they supposed to seperate their IFR traffic from a VFR transition they can’t see.

That's might be a completely different issue. If he's saying the reqs prohibit VFR traffic above the celiling of a Class D airport, require this, not. OTOH, if he is saying, "It is our Tower's policy to instruct VFR aircraft to remain clear of the Class D when the field is IFR unless they obtain a Special VFR clearance" that's a Tower policy choice, not a regulatory one.

If that's the case, it seems the problem might be is more about someone thinking that a local preference is a rule rather than a local preference or misunderstanding of what the Sup is saying.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

That’s what I’m saying. But he is saying essentially that since the field is IFR he can’t allow someone VFR to transition the Delta without a SVFR clearance.

He's just wrong.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Now he’s changing his story saying it’s allowed but the tower has to coordinate with Approach.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Like I said, the reg may say one thing but most of the time it’s treated as the whole airspace.

You mean like how TFRs are explicitly defined as radius X, and then airports 1.5 miles outside of X get treated as part of the TFR?
That would be complete BS, too. Willy nilly "interpretation" of black letter law is no way to run a railroad.