VFR Class B question

One person mentioned decending only 20' below class "B" another mentioned he was only 200' below class "B" and apparently the controller providing advisories didn't see a need to issue any type of advisory concerning the proximity to class "B". In this case maybe it wasn't an issue, however for you rated controllers to come on here and advise pilots seeking professional advise that they have no worries flying right up against a class B floor are providing dangerous advise. All of you should be familiar with proximity operations since It was mentioned in one of my first post and is in the .65

You have radar contact and radio communication with the a/c and slide the VFR just below class B for ifr traffic and then have him fall out of the sky for failure to provide some type of separation and you will be in a world of hurt. Simple solution is to provide the advisory and have the vfr maintain visual separation. It takes you less then 5 seconds to spit it out and you've covered your rear, plus it keeps the pilots informed as to what going on around them and prevents any oh sh__ moments.

The bottom line is this a/c was told by atc to descend leaving class B, so until the aircraft is safely out of the proximity of the class B floor, atc is responsible for separation. After all controllers must exercise their best judgment based on the facts and circumstances known to them. That action which is most critical from a safety standpoint is performed first.
 
sector15 said:
One person mentioned decending only 20' below class "B" another mentioned he was only 200' below class "B" and apparently the controller providing advisories didn't see a need to issue any type of advisory concerning the proximity to class "B". In this case maybe it wasn't an issue, however for you rated controllers to come on here and advise pilots seeking professional advise that they have no worries flying right up against a class B floor are providing dangerous advise. All of you should be familiar with proximity operations since It was mentioned in one of my first post and is in the .65

You have radar contact and radio communication with the a/c and slide the VFR just below class B for ifr traffic and then have him fall out of the sky for failure to provide some type of separation and you will be in a world of hurt. Simple solution is to provide the advisory and have the vfr maintain visual separation. It takes you less then 5 seconds to spit it out and you've covered your rear, plus it keeps the pilots informed as to what going on around them and prevents any oh sh__ moments.

The bottom line is this a/c was told by atc to descend leaving class B, so until the aircraft is safely out of the proximity of the class B floor, atc is responsible for separation. After all controllers must exercise their best judgment based on the facts and circumstances known to them. That action which is most critical from a safety standpoint is performed first.
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This is pretty much why I was concerned. It was really unclear to me exactly what he wanted. Since there seems to be some speculative discussion about the traffic 'picture', I can tell you this: I didn't get a single traffic advisory from this controller (nor did he ever terminate service with me). I did hear him tell another aircraft that was flying the corridor west bound to "remain below class Bravo, and stay on the north side of I-10". 10-15 minutes later, I got a traffic advisory about this plane, but that was after I'd been handed off to another frequency. Most of the chatter on the channel with the "descend below class Bravo" guy seemed to be jet traffic going into Hobby.

As it happens, I had my voice recorder with me and wired up that day, so I have a recording of all of the ATC chatter. I could probably edit it down if someone thinks that might be useful.
 
Sector15 do you work Class B airspace or are you just spouting off without experience? I watch VFR planes play chicken just below the B and IFR arrivals all day every day where I work. I often give "maintain at or above 3000' until 10 DME, cleared visual approach ........." clearances to prevent RA's.

Bottom line there is no separation standard, the VFR is able to decide how close to the Bravo(and the big aircraft that come with that) they feel safe being, without getting into it.
Is it legal to run a a heavy 100' ft over a VFR receiving advisories in Class E? Yup, I wouldn't do it but it is 100% legal. Moral separation standards are not rules.


What was the purpose of the Westwind crash story? You do know the a/c was on a visual following the B757 and this was prior to the "caution wake turbulence" rule, right?
 
I think this intercontroller debate is well in hand, but to the pilots. I work a Bravo like Boondr and Queeno pre retirement. They're right. They wanted you below the Bravo to wash their hands of the separation. It could very well have been a situation of hmmm I may have 500 feet vertical or I may have 400 and end up with an error. Lets resolve it by getting the VFR guy out of the separation picture. Maybe the controller in question has a reduced moral separation requirement in their head.

Even with the recording nobody will know. Unless you have the land line tapes and radar feed its all a debate over thats legal and whats moral. I'm probably the most over traffic calling controller in the agency. I was VFR one day and came close enough to realize I went to high school with the pilot of the other plane. I know how fun that is. Moral of the story is if you're out of the Bravo for what ever reason, keep a reasonable distance as best you can. Even in sleepy Bravos. Nobody works class B more than a year without an armfull of so some VFR guy just about had his day ruined by flirting too close stories.

I will say if you're told to get out of the B, there should at least be a reason given so you can at least be on the lookout.
 
It sounds like the controller wanted you to exit the bravo through the floor rather than out the lateral boundary, but wasn't clear in relaying that other than to give the descent.

Sometimes it happens, we could guess the reason behind this situation all day.

I've done it myself "descend below (floor of the bravo) remain outside bravo airspace" and haven't had it questioned.

As far as how far below the floor you go, that is up to you. My separation responsibility ends the second you are observed leaving the bravo. That's not to say I'm going to zing you because "I can," that's just in response to the "you have to" and "until a safe proximity from the bravo" riff raff that has popped up in this thread.

I too deal with the pilots playing chicken with the bravo all day every day. I also hold the standard I'm seeing here not to whiz 100 feet over a VFR creeping under the floor. More likely than not you'll get an RA if you do. But there are (rare) times when that's not an option. I cannot keep an airplane on a converging course with another one at the same altitude because there is a VFR aircraft with a non-verified mode C out there. The plane is coming down with a traffic call. That is why it's up to you, the pilot, to decide what a safe proximity is...
 
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