Vertical path non-precision approach safety?

@Boris Badenov What colors do you see below?
boris is black.png


Look you and I used to fly the crap out of clapped out freighters in and out of the poo every night.
Please tell me you aren't just black and white and don't see just safe and unsafe operations. There is a safer..
 
-Setting the wrong MDA - So, like, it's somehow easier to set the wrong MDA than the wrong DH? They're both in black and white on the plate.
-Not finding the airport and having to go missed - How is this more likely on an non-precision than a precision approach?
-Course alignment errors - Wait, so they're more dangerous because you might forget to read the plate and make the number in the little window match the number on the piece of paper? Maybe you'd "find your bliss" better as a Sanitation Engineer?

Potential fail points a constant descent has:
-Not getting down in time to see the runway and having to go missed - GO MISSED? My God, that's basically an accident right there! Also, expecting a pilot to get the aircraft to an appropriate altitude before commencing an instrument approach is "difficult"? Consult aforementioned PTS. Amazing anyone ever gets a rating!

Potential fail points of a dive and drive:
-Multiple stepdown fixes that could be set wrong - Yeah, it's pretty tough to look at the DME or God Forbid set a cross radial. If you could do that right every time, you'd be in third grade! I'm not in third grade, are you!? Dangerous.
-Multiple large power changes (which is the most likely time for an engine issue to occur) - Looking forward to your litany of accidents which have occurred because some poor bastard was forced to move the power levers during an approach!
-Potential for leaving VDP/PDP early and hitting something - Again, reading is pretty hard.
-Being unspooled for large portions of the approach during a potential shear situation - This should be another long list of accident abstracts. I'll just get me reading glasses.
-Much higher fuel burn (and noise issues in sensitive areas) - Well that does seem dangerous.



Howso? It seems to me to be a direct refutation of the claims that it would be somehow absurdly dangerous to shoot a step-down approach in a large aircraft with slow-spooling jet engines? Cause, I mean, your high-bypass turbofans are Le Mans next to the ole straight pipes, by all accounts.
Expand to see highlighted text.

You totally missed that he labelled his first section "Potential fail points both share." You then go on to make fun of pilots who make simple omissions when reading an approach chart. I think you've proven nicely that we are all vulnerable to mistakes, and that an approach procedure that minimizes exposure to those mistakes is safer. Good job.
 
Jumping in without having read the whole thread - but does it help that the FAA recommends professional operators fly a continuous descent final approach? Found this whilst studying and thought it was appropriate:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 120-108.pdf

I fly equipment the way my operator wants it to be flown, and I do what the FAA tells me to do (even if it is just a "suggestion" a la an Advisory Circular). They generally have the best ideas about whether something is safe, not safe, or safer.
 
Jumping in without having read the whole thread - but does it help that the FAA recommends professional operators fly a continuous descent final approach? Found this whilst studying and thought it was appropriate:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 120-108.pdf

I fly equipment the way my operator wants it to be flown, and I do what the FAA tells me to do (even if it is just a "suggestion" a la an Advisory Circular). They generally have the best ideas about whether something is safe, not safe, or safer.

Thank you.

Boris, isn't it interesting that the points below are the same ones that people on here have been saying? How strange...



BACKGROUND. Controlled flight into terrain (CFIT) is a primary cause of worldwide commercial aviation fatal accidents. Unstabilized approaches are a key contributor to CFIT
AC 120-108 1/20/11
events. Present NPAs are designed with and without stepdown fixes in the final approach segment. Stepdowns flown without a constant descent will require multiple thrust, pitch, and altitude adjustments inside the final approach fix (FAF). These adjustments increase pilot workload and potential errors during a critical phase of flight. NPAs designed without stepdown fixes in the final segment allow pilots to immediately descend to the MDA after crossing the FAF. In both cases, the aircraft remains at the MDA until descending for the runway or reaching the missed approach point (MAP). This practice, commonly referred to as “dive and drive,” can result in extended level flight as low as 250 feet above the ground in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) and shallow or steep final approaches. Figure 1A, Approach Example Without Using Continuous Descent Final Approach, Appendix 1, illustrates the disadvantages of the “dive and drive” technique.


Definition of CDFA. CDFA is a technique for flying the final approach segment of an NPA as a continuous descent. The technique is consistent with stabilized approach procedures and has no level-off. A CDFA starts from an altitude/height at or above the FAF and proceeds to an altitude/height approximately 50 feet (15 meters) above the landing runway threshold or to a point where the flare maneuver should begin for the type of aircraft being flown. This definition harmonizes with the ICAO and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA).
d.
Advantages of CDFA. CDFA offers the following advantages:
(1)
Increased safety by employing the concepts of stabilized approach criteria and procedure standardization.
(2)
Improved pilot situational awareness (SA) and reduced pilot workload.
(3)
Improved fuel efficiency by minimizing the low-altitude level flight time.
(4)
Reduced noise level by minimizing the level flight time at high thrust settings.
(5)
Procedural similarities to APV and precision approach operations.
(6)
Reduced probability of infringement on required obstacle clearance during the final approach segment.
 
I fly a lot of CANPAS and, at many 121 ops, you will.

And safely! :)

No use flying a triple IRU/GPS airplane like its your grandmother's Ercoupe.
 
I fly a lot of CANPAS and, at many 121 ops, you will.

And safely! :)

No use flying a triple IRU/GPS airplane like its your grandmother's Ercoupe.
Even so, my daddy taught me that a good landing starts with an approach in which you can just LET GO of the controls and arrive in the touchdown zone on speed.

That sounds a lot like CANPA...
 
Well, there's a lot of ways to skin a cat.

But the person who owns the cat and writes the procedures for me to skin that cat is also the ones that signs my checks.

Boss-man says fly the jet like "this", I'll fly the jet like "this".
 
Well, I learned from guys WAAAAY more experienced than me that you can fly a nice stabilized approach and touch the corners of the step-downs...so the only time you really need to level is at MDA, where you should already be configured and would only need a power change to maintain altitude until descent or missed...now the reason I hold reservation against CANPA is that I am then required to go missed at the MDA, rather than having a chance to look around for a second to see the runway...this is particularly important when at an angled approach when it's low vis. I'd rather have a chance to get in the first time, rather than do a missed and redo the approach or have to divert.

We should be able to do these types of approaches, or they should take them out of the toolbox. I think that's really all that is being stated. If you never get to do them, then it becomes even more of an issue should you need to do one.

Oh, and just because someone doesn't come happily to the mass point of view is no reason to call names and get angry. At that point you have a couple of choices, make a better argument, or leave the person in their "ignorance" rather than becoming abusive.
 
Oh, and just because someone doesn't come happily to the mass point of view is no reason to call names and get angry. At that point you have a couple of choices, make a better argument, or leave the person in their "ignorance" rather than becoming abusive.

I couldn't care less if anyone comes to the mass point of view. I called Boris out because he is constantly demeaning people on here. Not just me, but anyone who ever disagrees with him. He has an excellent command of the written word, no question, but he verbally slaps people constantly. I find that offensive.

He could be much more courteous in his posts. That's all.
 
Another thing is that I've got billion hours ham-fisting a mad dog.

Now American still flies Mad Dogs and when I rode their jumpseat, their procedures for the same aircraft were quite different. My people bark "we do it this way because of safety/manufacturer" and meanwhile, their people bark the same thing.

Eh, it don't hardly matter.
 
Another thing is that I've got billion hours ham-fisting a mad dog.

Now American still flies Mad Dogs and when I rode their jumpseat, their procedures for the same aircraft were quite different. My people bark "we do it this way because of safety/manufacturer" and meanwhile, their people bark the same thing.

Eh, it don't hardly matter.

Yeah, it's very interesting to see how much influence just a few people in an organization can have over a process.
 
he throws a good elbow,
...now the reason I hold reservation against CANPA is that I am then required to go missed at the MDA, rather than having a chance to look around for a second to see the runway...this is particularly important when at an angled approach when it's low vis. I'd rather have a chance to get in the first time, rather than do a missed and redo the approach or have to divert.

We should be able to do these types of approaches, or they should take them out of the toolbox. I think that's really all that is being stated. If you never get to do them, then it becomes even more of an issue should you need to do one..
can we address this point? I mean you guys are pissed at Boris for not accepting your point , but I think I am making a pretty serious point...now I have only flown a Brasilia in these environment, never did it in the P3, so my max (landing) weight was 25,000 and I had the power response of a turboprop, so I can't speak for spool up and all those things. I do know that I needed that extra few seconds looking around on a couple of different approaches I did, and CANPA would have had us gone missed...and we made it in safely...with no issues.
I am not trying to troll, I am dead serious, and I still want the option as a captain to make that determination...what's the problem with that?
 
he throws a good elbow,

can we address this point? I mean you guys are pissed at Boris for not accepting your point , but I think I am making a pretty serious point...now I have only flown a Brasilia in these environment, never did it in the P3, so my max (landing) weight was 25,000 and I had the power response of a turboprop, so I can't speak for spool up and all those things. I do know that I needed that extra few seconds looking around on a couple of different approaches I did, and CANPA would have had us gone missed...and we made it in safely...with no issues.
I am not trying to troll, I am dead serious, and I still want the option as a captain to make that determination...what's the problem with that?

As Derg said, it really boils down to flying the plane as the boss tells you to. Yes, you're PIC, and in an emergency you can do whatever is necessary to meet the needs of your situation. Otherwise, you have to follow procedure and the Ops Specs of the airline. If the Ops Specs don't allow dive and drive, then you're not allowed to do it.

and we made it in safely...with no issues

This is truly the crux of the discussion here. The "outcome" is not what determines the safety of the approach. If the outcome were the determining factor, you wouldn't be able to tell if an approach was safe until the aircraft was on the ground. If I fly an unstable approach and land 80% down the runway, but happen to be able to stop and keep it on the pavement, was that a safe approach/landing? It isn't that the outcome is unimportant. Instead, it is that you minimize the risk to reduce the likelihood of a bad outcome. In other words, what is important is how much additional risk is assumed in your approach. Think of it more as if everyone increased the risk as you did, say increasing from 1 in 40 million to one in a million, what would that mean to the operation as a whole. Since SouthWest and Delta fly nearly one million operations per year, that would mean one accident per year. Congress would be up in arms, and we would all be screwed if the accident rate were anywhere near that frequent.
 
he throws a good elbow,

can we address this point? I mean you guys are pissed at Boris for not accepting your point , but I think I am making a pretty serious point...now I have only flown a Brasilia in these environment, never did it in the P3, so my max (landing) weight was 25,000 and I had the power response of a turboprop, so I can't speak for spool up and all those things. I do know that I needed that extra few seconds looking around on a couple of different approaches I did, and CANPA would have had us gone missed...and we made it in safely...with no issues.
I am not trying to troll, I am dead serious, and I still want the option as a captain to make that determination...what's the problem with that?

Probably less risk in going around at your DDA and diverting to a nearby airport than going to MDA and driving around looking for an airport. This of course assumes that the plan for a diversion possibility has been briefed (and they likely have if mins are that close to DDA).

Oh and having seen some of the stupid crap the .01% of pilots have done, I'd really like my crew to choose the safest option please. This stuff protects the dolts..
 
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