Used NetJets aircraft?

[SFLAX]

You made bold statements about a company you don't work for, nor do you have first hand knowledge on, then you decided to make personal comments about my financial abilities, and you're still doing that, when it has NOTHING to do with the statements I'm correcting you on.

No fleets we operate are leased, they are financed or owned. Some aircraft in disposal, or on a rare case by case basis, have been leased to the customer by NetJets. We lease demo birds to test the market on, like in the case of the X+, but our fleets ARE NOT LEASED, I'm not sure how else to get this through to you.


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I never made any comments about your financial ability, but just maybe someone that does not work for NJ, might have some knowledge due to thier work? Maybe all the workings of your company are not laid out to all. I'll make sure to include you next time I work a deal with an old NJ plane.

 

[AAPalmTree]

I was talking with my captain last night on a transcon about corporate flying. We got on the subject of fracs. He asked if NetJets owned their planes. He was confused as to why I started laughing.

 

[cezzna]

Several people on this thread have been fractionally owned.

 

[NJA_Capt]

...And as for Marquee jet going out of business, no it was bought by NJ so not to go out of business. ....I'm just trying to show how the finance of these jets are NJ responsibility for the duration of the finance deal, period. Since NJ does not own the jet, they used to do it that way, but are required to pay for it, it's a lease. Like a car.

Against my better judgement. I have decided to emerge from a self imposed, multi-year exile because of this thread. After which, I will most likely log out until I see my shadow again in 2020.

SFLAX,

I have been with EJA/NJA for close to 20 years. I am not really interested in comparing resumes, but most of your posts are not accurate or flat out wrong. It reflects the common lack of understanding that most corp operators have about the fractional industry in general and particularly NJA.

I will not elaborate on internal affairs, but to correct a myriad of your allegations:
NJA does own aircraft outright. ie.. Core fleet. Not as many as previous eras, but still exist. No secret
NJA does not "lease" aircraft like the airlines
NJA Owners do own the aircraft (majority of fleet).
There is not a "fixed" share size. 1/4 (Quarter Share) is still the baseline. They can also buy a full share
Just because a lending company is shown on the registration does not mean that it is a "leased" aircraft. (Not elaborating here)
Why are there large numbers of former NJA planes "traded in" at Cessna, etc? It is not, because the lease expired. (Not elaborating here)
Allegation about why Marquis was bought/sold (Which you misspelled in many posts as well)...totally false
CS model was not even close to the EJA/NJA fractional model. Neither was AMR/Flex. Manufacturers have aTOTALLY different interest in this business and probably why none of them exist anymore. Including UAL Corp / Avolar circa ~2000. (By the way, Cessna asked EJA if it would be OK to start CS. We gave them our blessing.)
Owner are on the registration at delivery.
No, we do not tell owners to wait until their plane is built/accepted. They are placed in the program before their plane is available. (Not elaborating)

..... netjets uses the plane for on-demand charter for non-owners.

NetJets does not do on-demand charter. EJM does on-demand work. NetJets aircraft are not available to the general public.

 

[Inverted]

Waiting for him to chime in to tell you how wrong you are in 3...2...1...

 

[SFLAX]

So how was CS a different model? Also, I won't go into this much more, but the lease side is where the discussion went wrong, Ill reframe from it. Second, I never said for owners to wait till one is delivered the other gentlemen had brought up that point .

Also, how does NJ get around selling hours on airframes they do not own without lease back to the owners? And I apologize for the mispelling of Marquis Jet.

 

[NJA_Capt]

Dumb question. Where does NetJets unload there jets? I've been seeing more and more lately with the NetJets paint but with different tail numbers.

Not dumb at all. Answer: Wherever it can. Back in the late '90s when we started buying large blocks of aircraft, industry experts (LOL) were scared to death of what would happen when we started "dumping" large quantities of aircraft on the market. Ie....resale values would tank. However, over the years we have offloaded hundreds of airplanes without much of a ripple on the preowned market. 79 Citation Ultras disappeared without anyone even noticing. As did BAe 1000s, Ce750s, SIIs, and G200s. 10 Xs found there way to XO and 1 went to CS (through various outlets). One of the options that is publicly acknowledge is trading them back in to "a" manufacturer. Not necessarily the manufacturer that built them.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2014-10-22/citation-x-elite-adds-new-life-older-jets
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...-01/netjets-makes-biggest-ever-aircraft-order

 

[NJA_Capt]

So how was CS a different model?

First and foremost, CS, TA, and Flex were all owned by manufacturers whose primary goal was to sell airplanes. It was a way to expose potential buyers to their products and sell airframes. It also provided a good resale avenue for the used airframes akin to the "program cars" or "demos" at a car dealership. NetJets (Executive Jet Aviation) is about selling an experience. Similar to comparing hotels to The Rtiz. Hotels sell rooms, The Ritz sells an experience.

Also, how does NJ get around selling hours on airframes they do not own without lease back to the owners?

Do to confidentiality reasons I will let this one pass. But there are several avenues. Search enough registrations and you might see a pattern.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1019520611879048920

 

[SFLAX]

First and foremost, CS, TA, and Flex were all owned by manufacturers whose primary goal was to sell airplanes. It was a way to expose potential buyers to their products and sell airframes. It also provided a good resale avenue for the used airframes akin to the "program cars" or "demos" at a car dealership. NetJets (Executive Jet Aviation) is about selling an experience. Similar to comparing hotels to The Rtiz. Hotels sell rooms, The Ritz sells an experience.


Do to confidentiality reasons I will let this one pass. But there are several avenues. Search enough registrations and you might see a pattern.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB1019520611879048920

I do believe they all sold the experience. And I do know how most of the cards are created. It's not to hard to figure out. As for demo cars I'm a little confused? As in the others bought used ones ?

 

[Cessnaflyer]

Not dumb at all. Answer: Wherever it can. Back in the late '90s when we started buying large blocks of aircraft, industry experts (LOL) were scared to death of what would happen when we started "dumping" large quantities of aircraft on the market. Ie....resale values would tank. However, over the years we have offloaded hundreds of airplanes without much of a ripple on the preowned market. 79 Citation Ultras disappeared without anyone even noticing. As did BAe 1000s, Ce750s, SIIs, and G200s. 10 Xs found there way to XO and 1 went to CS (through various outlets). One of the options that is publicly acknowledge is trading them back in to "a" manufacturer. Not necessarily the manufacturer that built them.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2014-10-22/citation-x-elite-adds-new-life-older-jets
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...-01/netjets-makes-biggest-ever-aircraft-order

Thanks for coming out of your self-imposed exile for this information!

 

[NJA_Capt]

I do believe they all sold the experience.

True, to an extent.

And I do know how most of the cards are created. It's not to hard to figure out.

What cards? Jet cards? I was referring strictly about the shares. You'll never see a card holder on a registration.

As for demo cars I'm a little confused? As in the others bought used ones ?

No. I mean manufacturer owned fractionals existed to sell airplanes. The frax were a good way to expose new flyers to their products. In a perfect world, when their contract expired, the owner would renew or hopefully buy a product from that manufacturer. After a few years in the CS fleet, Cessna would sell the plane. Similar to the way a (new) leased automobile is turned back in to the dealer. The dealer puts a nice bow on it and sells it as a CPO vehicle. I know it is a bit more involved, but this is the Cliff's Notes version.

 

[SFLAX]

I know that jet card owners are not on the registration. But with the litigation that owners brought with some of fractional in regards to the hours being sold on their AC, leads to the operator owning part of the fleet to facilitate the use, or I know at CS the owners could sell back hours to be sold at the higher jetcard price. And the only AC that ever left the CS fleet were the CJ1s and the Bravos, which were actually owned by Wells Fargo and Bank of America. Cessna only got back the remaining fleet once they decided to close it. Now the last CJ3 is being used by Cessna once that is gone, they will all been sold. And that X that came from NJ to CS, it's in Mexico now.

 

[NJA_Capt]

I know that jet card owners are not on the registration. But with the litigation that owners brought with some of fractional in regards to the hours being sold on their AC, leads to the operator owning part of the fleet to facilitate the use, or I know at CS the owners could sell back hours to be sold at the higher jetcard price.

It was handled differently with Marquis and yet again now that NJ bought the MJ brand. Neither involved owners selling back hours for the card programs. I was always surprised that some of the frax operated that way. I can see where the litigation would come from.

 

[SFLAX]

The litigation at least for CS was, that they would just sell hours and the owners were like, wait a minute, we all own it, not you . But we had owners that would own whole shares or 1/2 and sell back 25 or 50 hours a month to the jetcard side. Was a very good deal for both sides.