Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Rest assured, there is no way SWAPA and SWA management would have allowed it to go to arbitration.
US Airways pilots' seniority disputes may muddle merger
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I'm not bashing Airtran of today, Airtran is a good airline and I wish they had lived as a stand-alone carrier without SWA. I do have an issue with ValuJet of the 90s, simply because of the astonishing amount of things they did wrong to save money and their unsafe record. Anyway, my point was that for some reason, AAI still hasn't dropped their old merged name.
Nick
Well-Known Member
They certainly have dropped the name, like a decade ago...why the heck do you think we're all referring to it as AirTran??
It's about controlling a web domain as well as re-directing the one out of a million people who thinks ValuJet still exists, to the company that it morphed into about 10 years ago, before they dumped the entire fleet and went through a comprehensive transformation and now are merging with SWA.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I don't think the average traveller today remembers that ValuJet became Airtran. The ValuJet name disappeared shortly after the Everglades crash.
Nick
Well-Known Member
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
C'mon... it was blatant. Just admit you were being a dingus! Hell I even thought it was a good quick and witty retort. Props!
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You do realize that SabreTech was responsible for lying about what was contained in the shipment, not properly labeling it, and not properly securing it, don't you? The NTSB faulted ValuJet secondarily for "not property supervising." But that accident was caused by SabreTech, not ValuJet.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Really? Ever watched a news story about AirTran or read a report in the AJC?
"Southwest announced today that they're acquiring AirTran, the airline formerly known as ValuJet."
I'm pretty sure the Atlanta Journal just keeps the phrase "AirTran, the airline formerly known as ValueJet" on their clipboard so they can copy and paste it at will.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
A small airline in the 50-150 fleet size merging with a large legacy size (500-700) will not go well. The ONLY chance of a decent merger that smaller airline pilots can hope for is in arbitration. Recent history has shown category/class methods. There is a very likely chance that had it gone to arbitration, Airtran guys would have mixed in with a much better ratio with the Boeing 737 guys of SWA. SWAPA knew this, as did their management. For them, it is far better to threaten a non-merger and tell them they risk their jobs if they don't vote on what SWAPA and management want. If that had happened, Airtran would have suffered lots of furloughs and downgrades when the 717s left to Delta. If and when VAPA passes, we become unionized, and suppose a merger happens with United. I'm not saying it will, but just suppose. I can guarantee you we will NOT be going into arbitration with United pilots. Not a snowball chance in hell, and I'm being realistic here. Let history be a lesson. You admit yourself that the Airtran ALPA MEC was outsmarted, and I guarantee you that United ALPA will outsmart their acquired carrier (be it VX or Spirit or Frontier, etc).LOL! Yeah, you're the expert.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Safety problems
In August 1995, the Department of Defense (DoD) rejected ValuJet's bid to fly military personnel. In a scathing report, the DoD cited serious deficiencies in ValuJet's quality assurance procedures.[5]
The Federal Aviation Administration's (FAA) Atlanta field office sent a memo on February 14, 1996, to Washington, D.C., stating that "consideration should be given to the immediate FAR-121 rectification of this airline" - in other words, the FAA wanted ValuJet grounded. ValuJet airplanes made 15 emergency landings in 1994, 57 in 1995, and 57 from January through May 1996. In February the FAA ordered ValuJet to seek approval before adding any new aircraft or cities to their network, something the industry had not seen since deregulation in 1979. This attempt at removing ValuJet's certification was "lost in the maze at FAA" according to NTSB Chairman Jim Hall.[7] By this time, ValuJet's accident rate was not only one of the highest in the low-fare sector, but was more than 14 times that of the legacy airlines.[5]
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The ValuJet crash was the fault of Sabretech, but Valujet had a checkered history full of safety issues. Those bolded portions are some serious safety issues.
I've never seen an article of recent that mentions ValuJet with Airtran. Maybe the local news channels of Atlanta do that.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Oh snap, snap, snap-a-roo!
It's just "high school"
So Air Tran was ValuJet. What, when Toddler was in high school? Holy cow man, compelling argument, hate to face THAT argument on the witness stand.
They had an accident due to negligence. So did my employer numerous times and I bet they'd both blow a dwarf to work for us too.
Pops probably boned a Korean hooker on TDY during the Korean War in Pusan, but a • monger does not that make me.
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Derg said:
I say Hillshire you say Farm ...
Let me clarify.
Do I always agree with him? Nope. Do I ever? Very occasionally but it's usually a rarity.
However at least he can take the heat, does what he thinks is best for the profession and in glad he's out there doing something because I'm too lazy, drunk and indifferent to do it myself.
As long as he's not an unnerving koolaid-drinking Moak-ite like far too many people have become so they can move into managerial positions or further into the political machine of ALPA and away from actually flying damned airplanes, I say rage on.
You can debate ATN and he will volley with you, I've been there, but this high school "neener neener, look at this blog and you worked for the company formerly known as ValuJet" big whoop.
In my case, people talk smack about me all the damned time and they're cowards. Meet me for a friendly beer like a man and I will listen to your grievance and promise to find an agreeable resolution. But the whole nature of the Internet when it comes to dealing with real world situations is doofus when it's debated like this.
Back to my PBR
Do I always agree with him? Nope. Do I ever? Very occasionally but it's usually a rarity.
However at least he can take the heat, does what he thinks is best for the profession and in glad he's out there doing something because I'm too lazy, drunk and indifferent to do it myself.
As long as he's not an unnerving koolaid-drinking Moak-ite like far too many people have become so they can move into managerial positions or further into the political machine of ALPA and away from actually flying damned airplanes, I say rage on.
You can debate ATN and he will volley with you, I've been there, but this high school "neener neener, look at this blog and you worked for the company formerly known as ValuJet" big whoop.
In my case, people talk smack about me all the damned time and they're cowards. Meet me for a friendly beer like a man and I will listen to your grievance and promise to find an agreeable resolution. But the whole nature of the Internet when it comes to dealing with real world situations is doofus when it's debated like this.
Back to my PBR
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
I have nothing against anyone at Airtran. I like Airtran, flew on them lots and still wish it was a stand-alone carrier. Someone wrote that I shouldn't throw stones from a glass house because current company flies everyone to/from two California cities. That was the confusing statement, so I simply wrote on the metrics of safety of Valujet (90s carrier) and VX. I have nothing but the best to say about Airtran today. I still think who ever is running their PR department should sell off the Valujet.com address.
The blog has been addressed and clarified. It's not credible as I have learned. I have no issue with Airtran. I do respect the guy in the sense that at least he fights for what he believes, even if it is a little too much over-the-top die hard ALPA. Believe it or not, he and I have been to an Outback Steakhouse, and in person, we'd get along. The guy has written me a LOR for the previous company, and he's helpful in getting questions answered. I hope he wasn't offended, I respect his career path in the airlines and Airtran as well. A few jabs never hurt anyone, just don't bring up ALPA in person, and I think he and I'd get along well.
I have never, as best as I can recall. No reason to. You've done a good job in what you've created here and put in lots of personal time. I've been here on/off since 2001 high school and have enjoyed the ups and downs of the forum messages.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I don't disagree with that. It was a smart move on their part. What I disagree with is your assertion that it wasn't a bluff. It most certainly was, and our MC and MEC were outsmarted. This is Bargaining 101 type stuff. But sadly, that's what happens when you recall all of the people who have experience and replace them with a bunch of noobs. They've never sat at the bargaining table, so they get scared when the big, bad management types start yelling threats. Guys like me have had managers screaming threats at them for years and let it roll off like water off a duck's back. If I had a dollar for every time a manager threatened to fire me or shut down the airline over a bargaining issue, I'd have enough money to not need to bargain a new contract in the first place. Threats are a dime a dozen in labor relations. Actually taking blatantly illegal actions? That's a different story.