US Airways Pilot Keeps American Pilots Off His Jumpseat

Cptnchia said:
Oh yes! These AE are killing me though. Feb AE, 11 senior out, 14 senior in. Mar AE, 8 senior out, 10 senior in. I 'm really not liking all this negative movement. What happened to "all the senior FOs will be bidding new captian seats." Those guys aren't going anywhere until some heavys come along.
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Oh I know. That was a hilarious assertion, isn't it? :)

I actually would have better seniority in my old base and equipment, but I'm still on the verge of domestic now.

Huge win. Yeah, what ev's.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
People who choose to have a good attitude about being crapped on are delusional losers. No thanks.
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This is what I just don't get about seniority integration in general (and yours in particular.)

I understand fighting for the best deal possible while the deal is on the table. I fully agree that the TWA guys got totally screwed, and from your information ATN pilots got a crap sandwich. However, once the deal is done, there is nothing anyone can do to change it. So, why do people continue to bitch and moan about something that they have absolutely no control over and no power to change?

I understand your decision to get out rather than commute to OAK. That is a reasonable QOL based decision that I would probably choose if I were in your shoes. I'm not really calling you out in particular, but I've heard of guys who take all of this very personally.
 
USMCmech said:
So, why do people continue to bitch and moan about something that they have absolutely no control over and no power to change?
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I have two perspectives on this.

Part of it is so that it doesn't get repeated again.

Plus, bitching is an Aviation Olympic Sport.

Am I thrilled with our SLI? Ehh, not thrilled, but largely indifferent. But I certainly recognize harboring anger about anything which you have no control over will eventually kill you.
 
Derg said:
I have two perspectives on this.

Part of it is so that it doesn't get repeated again.

Plus, bitching is an Aviation Olympic Sport.

Am I thrilled with our SLI? Ehh, not thrilled, but largely indifferent. But I certainly recognize harboring anger about anything which you have no control over will eventually kill you.
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But, but......look at what a better contract those GP Express and Henson guys were able to negotiate! Ours is crap! Rabble, rabble...
 
USMCmech said:
This is what I just don't get about seniority integration in general (and yours in particular.)

I understand fighting for the best deal possible while the deal is on the table. I fully agree that the TWA guys got totally screwed, and from your information ATN pilots got a crap sandwich. However, once the deal is done, there is nothing anyone can do to change it. So, why do people continue to bitch and moan about something that they have absolutely no control over and no power to change?
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Because for many people, bitching and moaning is cathartic. Sure, it's not rational, but it works.

But if someone like Don tries to justify a screwing, responding to that isn't about catharsis. It's about not allowing revisionist history or bad ideas to set in as generally accepted belief. The idea that people should give up seniority for pay is abhorrent, and anyone who suggests it should be shouted down. That's the absolute last thing that needs to become accepted in this profession.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
But if someone like Don tries to justify a screwing, responding to that isn't about catharsis. It's about not allowing revisionist history or bad ideas to set in as generally accepted belief. The idea that people should give up seniority for pay is abhorrent, and anyone who suggests it should be shouted down. That's the absolute last thing that needs to become accepted in this profession.
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Again, I don't think that he was saying that. I certainly wasn't.

That being said... I really don't like the idea of "shouting down" someone. If you're position cannot be defended using a rational discussion without anger or shouting, maybe it is you who need to rethink. "Group think" in unions is one of the major problems that I have with ALPA in general, and just because a majority agree doesn't mean that they are correct, or that the guy being shouted at is wrong.
 
Shouting down someone means that you're trading reframing what may be a valid point that the other party isn't understanding with volume and acidic demeanor.

Just like a monolingual flight attendant thinks that "Louder English" is a universally understood language.

"Yeeeew WONT chicken or beef?"

"¿Qué?"

"I SAID DO Y'ALL WANT CHEEEECKIN OR BEEEF POR FUHVOWER?"
 
Derg said:
Shouting down someone means that you're trading reframing what may be a valid point that the other party isn't understanding with volume and acidic demeanor.

Just like a monolingual flight attendant thinks that "Louder English" is a universally understood language.

"Yeeeew WONT chicken or beef?"

"¿Qué?"

"I SAID DO Y'ALL WANT CHEEEECKIN OR BEEEF POR FUHVOWER?"
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HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Good thing this eliminates preachers!
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No one here is my coworker, and we're not at work.
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First of all, if you think this is a place for shout downs, you're sorely mistaken... But forgive me if it seemed that your "shout down" policy was representative of your general outlook towards those who disagree with you. It certainly seems to fit in with your "trade unionist" perspective of manipulating people through peer pressure and shaming.
 
Why should any side have to resort to what is nothing more than bullying, to get their point across? It's not right for management, and not right for the union. The workers aren't pawns in a power struggle.

If a point is a good one, it will sell itself. no bullying required.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
The fact that an anti-labor, pro-management guy like you is so worked up about peer pressure and shaming shows how powerful a tool it really is.
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I'm not anti-labor or pro management. I'm pro-intelligence and independent thought, the very things that unions hate. If you can think for yourself, you're a threat. The reason that people like you shame is because you lack the capability to convince through reason and discussion.

And I'm not worked up, by the way... I just find the practice contemptible, and people who practice it unworthy of respect.
 
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MikeD said:
Why should any side have to resort to what is nothing more than bullying, to get their point across? It's not right for management, and not right for the union. The workers aren't pawns in a power struggle.

If a point is a good one, it will sell itself. no bullying required.
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Yeah, because friendly conversation will convince the wannabe SCABs not to cross a picket line. :rolleyes:

What color is the sky in your world?
 
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