UPS Shuffle Continues
- Thread starter jhugz
- Start date
jhugz
Well-Known Member
Compared to our pathetic 208 pay, the raise for upgrading to the 1900 is nice.
Compared to the rest of the world.........
At least they didn't have to sign 24 month training contracts (only 12).
First year for us on the metro gets very close to double your 1900 rates, but then again we lost a route to you guys.
SIUav8er
Narcosis
Heres the problem; as soon as ameriflight gets a union and improves pay and QOL for the pilots, another company will come in and lowball a contract. I hear each UPS feeder route is up for bid every 30 days or something like that so the competition is pretty cut throat. Not that I disagree with you here, it would be nice to have union, but I just dont see it realistically happening. And if it ever did, it would probably be the beginning of the end for AMF.
Its tough to compete with operators such as Martinaire, Redding Aero, or any of the other little 135 companies out there that would love to pick a UPS run. A union would only make it that much harder for AMF to compete.
I'd disagree, but primarily in theory.
A union is just another business contract, just like contract fuel, mx, hangar space, whatever.
If the contract terms are workable from a business standpoint there's no reason a union would put AMF or anyone else at any competitive disadvantage. A really clever company could use it as an advantage with increased retention, lower training costs, whatever.
Arguing that union contracts put the business at a disadvantage is a cop-out used by management who either signed a bad contract that indeed does put them at a disadvantage, has some religious issue with unions or that just isn't able to work with a unionized workforce due to their own (management) incompetence. I know, because I was one.
That's the theory.
I've negotiated a union contract as a member and I've been a manager with union employees working for me (well, technically I worked for them) and really don't see it as a plus or a minus for a business. It's just another business contract and done right everybody is happy.
Now, I can tell you that many of my fellow managers didn't see things that way and many of my fellow union members didn't either. It quickly becomes an emotional issue and rational "hey, can't we all just live within our agreement" goes out the window. Just look at what's happening in Wisconsin. They're all crazy.
FWIW, I work at a non-unionized freight company and am extremely happy. We're very small, get treated well and get paid fairly for what we do. But I'm lucky. My wife, who is a union president says, when the phone rings at 3 a.m. "You need a union!" to which I usually reply, "no, that's the last thing we need. I'm gonna go fly and make some money."
MSUDAWG
Well-Known Member
Exactly what AMF did with my company. Came in and low balled BIG time and we lost the routes. Seems to be a common ground with them
kiloalpha
Well-Known Member
Hate to say it, but that is business. Think of Amflight as the Wal-Mart of freight hauling. But, you get what you pay for and UPS knows this. Mess up, that route is back up for grabs.
KLB
Well-Known Member
Two things. It's not exactly like what everybodies saying. AMF has had runs taken away from them by other companies as well. As far as performance goes, we don't mess up. We have enough resources to keep things going. Service are a no no. They just don't happen. We have covered for other companies that couldn't handle their own flying or didn't have the aircraft to cover their broken ones. Thats mainly what I do currently...recover for other companies. AMF is more like the Target of cargo operators!
You guys can gang up on "the company" all you want. But the flying has been shuffled around all of the different 135 ops since I've been doing this. AMF has lost a couple of bases...that's entire bases to other companies. I don't believe that AMF put Air Now out of business, they simply could not survive. AMF has had to cover for them quite often.
AMF gets underbid for runs all of the time. Thats why it's called a shuffle.
Lets not get all regional airline squably over here. Plus I hate defending something that I have no control over. I'd rather be helping people get hired.
Same thing that happened with the PHX UPS routes with my former company after I left. AMF did just that for the routes we had.
skatergeek
Beet Farmer
Like KLB said, it happens to AMF too. I've seen entire bases go bye bye just so UPS can save a few bucks.
scooter2525
Very well Member
Billings comes to mind as a base that AMF lost. Just within the past year, AMF lost a bank bid to ANS out of so-cal.....
We closed a baron run out of there recently too...
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
I'm surprised you guys have a Lear there. I never saw it move during the three weeks I was there for training.
SIUav8er
Narcosis
Yeah, it goes both ways... I think UPS likes to keep their feeder routes moving between companies. It makes it so there isn't one huge company flying ALL their work.
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scooter2525
Very well Member
I've got that impression too. If a company goes under or isnt able to handle they flights, UPS isn't left scrambling.
Matt777
Well-Known Member
I don't think you are slagging on AMF pilots because, as far as I can tell, AMF pilots can't be slagged on. Why?
Well, how can you slag on pilots who have chosen to work for a company that pays them $28,000 for their first year of pay instead of going to a regional to be paid $21,000 a year or less to work a maximum duty time and reduced rest day for days in a row?
I realize that some/many AMF schedules approach a full duty day, but the 5 or 6 hours off in the middle means it's not like a full duty day at a regional with no breaks flying 8 legs.
Second year pay is when it may get better at some of the regionals, but you still aren't logging any PIC or Turbine time.
If you were trying to say something negative about AMF by trying to making a comparison to the "benefits" you get from working for the regionals I completely missed your point. Could you elaborate?
Regarding losing routes. Business is business. If you ran UPS and had to answer to your board and stockholders about profitablility you would cancel contracts when a lower bidder came along. It's just a numbers game. Business has always been a numbers game. It doesn't matter what the industry is.
If AMF is often able to underbid others they must have figured out how to run very efficiently.
If AMF is taking more business than you'd like... well, the carriers that they are underbidding should learn to be more efficient so that they can present to UPS (or whomever) a lower bid and keep the business.
But I could be wrong. I was wrong once. Maybe that was more than once.
Well, how can you slag on pilots who have chosen to work for a company that pays them $28,000 for their first year of pay instead of going to a regional to be paid $21,000 a year or less to work a maximum duty time and reduced rest day for days in a row?
I realize that some/many AMF schedules approach a full duty day, but the 5 or 6 hours off in the middle means it's not like a full duty day at a regional with no breaks flying 8 legs.
Second year pay is when it may get better at some of the regionals, but you still aren't logging any PIC or Turbine time.
If you were trying to say something negative about AMF by trying to making a comparison to the "benefits" you get from working for the regionals I completely missed your point. Could you elaborate?
Regarding losing routes. Business is business. If you ran UPS and had to answer to your board and stockholders about profitablility you would cancel contracts when a lower bidder came along. It's just a numbers game. Business has always been a numbers game. It doesn't matter what the industry is.
If AMF is often able to underbid others they must have figured out how to run very efficiently.
If AMF is taking more business than you'd like... well, the carriers that they are underbidding should learn to be more efficient so that they can present to UPS (or whomever) a lower bid and keep the business.
But I could be wrong. I was wrong once. Maybe that was more than once.
SIUav8er
Narcosis
huh? I dont think anyone said anything like that in here! Simply discussing the UPS feeder system... which is pretty screwy from my point of view. I guess thats what happens when a trucking company gets involved with air cargo.