UPS MD-11 RTO incident, Seoul

I just figure by the time I hear anything, interpret what I'm looking at, believe it and decide to either go or rej….CRAP NOW WE'RE 15 KNOTS OVER V1
 
I like how Boeing made my jet. Above 80K it only makes the "bad things happening sounds" for things I should reject for. Bad things I need to think about have their audibles inhibited above 80k. I just listen and don't look above 80K. Swerve, bang, or bell above 80k is all I need to worry about unless it doesn't fly for some reason. If it comes to that you're pretty much screwed anyways.
 
DE727UPS said:
I like how Boeing made my jet. Above 80K it only makes the "bad things happening sounds" for things I should reject for. Bad things I need to think about have their audibles inhibited above 80k. I just listen and don't look above 80K. Swerve, bang, or bell above 80k is all I need to worry about unless it doesn't fly for some reason. If it comes to that you're pretty much screwed anyways.
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That is how the other Boeings, McBoeings, Canadairs, Embraers, and the Buses work as well.
 
I haven't heard anything "official" yet. The crew is highly experienced on the MD11 and well respected by our group. I'm glad everyone walked away unscathed and have returned safely back to their families in the US.

Whether it was luck, skill or divine intervention, I'm also glad they were able to miss the approach lights at the end with as much fuel as they had onboard.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Yup. "Fire, (engine) failure, fear, or windshear (if it's deemed by the ca safer to stop)" are the only reasons we abort above 80 knots. Other than that, it's go.
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IIRC, we are taught, "fire, wind shear, or it won't fly."

Right now, sitting in the right seat, it's been drilled into me that I'm not to worry about what to abort over. Just to call out the message, and let the other guy decide.

Edit: I take issue with that because there are a few rare set of circumstances that dictate otherwise, like it won't rotate, but I'm paid to do it one way, so I do it that way. If the sucker won't rotate, I'm going to have to hold hands while I call out the failure I guess, get on the brakes and deal with it later.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Does Delta not callout V1 at V1-5 kts precisely for what you are implying? I thought almost everyone had made that switch.
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I do believe in the V1-5kt call and do it part 91. However, if I remember correctly, startle factor is built into certification with regards to V1. Some one correct me if I'm wrong.
 
mshunter said:
Edit: I take issue with that because there are a few rare set of circumstances that dictate otherwise, like it won't rotate, but I'm paid to do it one way, so I do it that way. If the sucker won't rotate, I'm going to have to hold hands while I call out the failure I guess, get on the brakes and deal with it later.
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It is vitally important that all pilots, but especially 121 FOs, understand the difference between company policy and good airmanship. Blindly following company policy is not always the same as good airmanship.

You're completely right to be following company policy, but also remembering that when your pink butt is on the line, it is simultaneously your responsibility to exercise good judgment (and sometimes that conflicts with company policy).
 
Hacker15e said:
It is vitally important that all pilots, but especially 121 FOs, understand the difference between company policy and good airmanship. Blindly following company policy is not always the same as good airmanship.

You're completely right to be following company policy, but also remembering that when your pink butt is on the line, it is simultaneously your responsibility to exercise good judgment (and sometimes that conflicts with company policy).
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And that's where things get really really muddy. 99.999% of company policy is the way it is for good reason, even the RTO decision is a good one because they are so dangerous. But I remember a recent Allegiant RTO above V1, on a long runway because of an elevator issue. Had that been on a short runway, the FO flying and "it won't fly!!!" what would have happened?
 
mshunter said:
And that's where things get really really muddy. 99.999% of company policy is the way it is for good reason, even the RTO decision is a good one because they are so dangerous. But I remember a recent Allegiant RTO above V1, on a long runway because of an elevator issue. Had that been on a short runway, the FO flying and "it won't fly!!!" what would have happened?
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The FOM at my company says in the very first paragraph,

"No policy or regulation shall be interpreted as a substitute for the exercise of sound judgment."
 
mshunter said:
And that's where things get really really muddy. 99.999% of company policy is the way it is for good reason, even the RTO decision is a good one because they are so dangerous. But I remember a recent Allegiant RTO above V1, on a long runway because of an elevator issue. Had that been on a short runway, the FO flying and "it won't fly!!!" what would have happened?
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Every airline I've seen has "it won't fly" as the one reason to abort above V1.
 
Rumor now is nose gear tire failure near V1 resulting in engine damage and hydraulic failure, including brakes.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Every airline I've seen has "it won't fly" as the one reason to abort above V1.
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I think you missed the point though. Common sense, besides what the feds or any airline says, if it won't fly, and you're past V1, you either drive on Highway 40 to the destination, or you abort. But it may take a few seconds to mutter "it won't rotate...IT WON'T ROATATE!"

Then, the left seat says, "uhh, what?" Scans the instruments....2000ft remaining... Looks at you perplexed....scans the instruments....trying to figure out why the FO hasn't taken us flying yet....trys for himself to get it flying....1000ft remaining.....initiates abort, well above Vr now.....500ft remaining, and into the dirt (if you're lucky enough to have that) you go.

IMO, there should be a set of circumstances, as narrow as they might be where the FO can, and should, call "ABORT-ABORT-ABORT".

Especially at my shop. There are a few guys, and gals, who I, as an FO, feel like I babysit for 3-4 days at a time.
 
mshunter said:
I think you missed the point though. Common sense, besides what the feds or any airline says, if it won't fly, and you're past V1, you either drive on Highway 40 to the destination, or you abort. But it may take a few seconds to mutter "it won't rotate...IT WON'T ROATATE!"

Then, the left seat says, "uhh, what?" Scans the instruments....2000ft remaining... Looks at you perplexed....scans the instruments....trying to figure out why the FO hasn't taken us flying yet....trys for himself to get it flying....1000ft remaining.....initiates abort, well above Vr now.....500ft remaining, and into the dirt (if you're lucky enough to have that) you go.

IMO, there should be a set of circumstances, as narrow as they might be where the FO can, and should, call "ABORT-ABORT-ABORT".

Especially at my shop. There are a few guys, and gals, who I, as an FO, feel like I babysit for 3-4 days at a time.
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I gotta say the BED Gulfstream crash sounded awfully like what you are describing. They got the "gust lock is on" figured out, and had they aborted right then, probably would have lived (even if overran by several feet). But to keep repeating that gust lock is on and then try and free the lock, while eating up precious runway is bad juju.
 
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