UPS MD-11 crash at SDF

Karnage said:
In fairness I sit and watch them do the same in the Jurassic Jet. Had an FO recently who’s MCP-jitsu managed to nearly get us violated and/or grossly unstable all four days. He was in disbelief I could get it to do what I wanted with so few button pushes and no frantic intervention to keep it on speed and path all the time.
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I mean I’m 1300-1400 hours into this airline thing and the imposter syndrome is just starting to fade but stories like this make me realize it was probably dumb to have that to begin with.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Less is more.

You can saturate our old FMC by giving it too many changes to the vertical path close-in and it’ll just sit there going “whelp, VNAV speed, what’re you gonna do about it” while it recalculates.

Orrrrrr you can select a mode that gives you the desired flight path. Or no modes.
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Less is indeed more, just as slower is often faster, vis a vis the pilots who try to speed through button pushes like it’s a race, not even knowing if the button(s) actually activated or not and not knowing what they may have missed because they’re speeding and didn’t reference the FMA

Flown with a few pilots who when either vectors to a final, or even maneuvering ourselves to a base/final, the autopilot doesn’t do something nav-wise that they are wanting or expecting it to. First thing they do, is go head down into the box trying to figure it out. Rather than just fly the plane, as the raw data is there already there and tuned in, and you’re looking at the approach plate. The other pilot can figure it out and fix it, until then the plane flies fine with you controlling it. And if on a visual, who cares even more, in fact, I’m surprised that the FD needles are still even on, on a visual, whether cleared or just flying it yourself at middle of nowhere airport, with the field in sight. Declutter that ADI! :)
 
MikeD said:
Less is indeed more, just as slower is often faster, vis a vis the pilots who try to speed through button pushes like it’s a race, not even knowing if the button(s) actually activated or not and not knowing what they may have missed because they’re speeding and didn’t reference the FMA

Flown with a few pilots who when either vectors to a final, or even maneuvering ourselves to a base/final, the autopilot doesn’t do something nav-wise that they are wanting or expecting it to. First thing they do, is go head down into the box trying to figure it out. Rather than just fly the plane, as the raw data is there already there and tuned in, and you’re looking at the approach plate. The other pilot can figure it out and fix it, until then the plane flies fine with you controlling it. And if on a visual, who cares even more, in fact, I’m surprised that the FD needles are still even on, on a visual, whether cleared or just flying it yourself at middle of nowhere airport, with the field in sight. Declutter that ADI! :)
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I’m big on follow it or turn it off, a holdover from the previous Airbus operator who understood that is key to preventing an undesired aircraft state.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Much of the difficulties I’ve observed people having in the bus, regardless of the level of automation, have come from 1) them not understanding what they asked the jet to do, or 2) them not understanding what the jet is attempting to tell them via the silent scream of the FMA.
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If you do the Airbus thing and read out every FMA, they aren't silent.
 
MikeD said:
Less is indeed more, just as slower is often faster, vis a vis the pilots who try to speed through button pushes like it’s a race, not even knowing if the button(s) actually activated or not and not knowing what they may have missed because they’re speeding and didn’t reference the FMA

Flown with a few pilots who when either vectors to a final, or even maneuvering ourselves to a base/final, the autopilot doesn’t do something nav-wise that they are wanting or expecting it to. First thing they do, is go head down into the box trying to figure it out. Rather than just fly the plane, as the raw data is there already there and tuned in, and you’re looking at the approach plate. The other pilot can figure it out and fix it, until then the plane flies fine with you controlling it. And if on a visual, who cares even more, in fact, I’m surprised that the FD needles are still even on, on a visual, whether cleared or just flying it yourself at middle of nowhere airport, with the field in sight. Declutter that ADI! :)
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Now you did it. You've awoken the ghost of Warren Vanderburgh!

Van Click Click.png
 
You should really never get to the point of having to "click click" and fly the airbus, and if you do its probably because you screwed up or are ignorant to what its doing (which is what you told it to). In those moments, sure turn it off including FDs and re-find your ass. Anytime you have to click click and airbus you should be on high alert because something didnt go to plan. This should be the rare exception and not a normal practice. I know that strikes to the core of our inner pilot or the "be a pilot" amongst us, but its the truth. I am not talking about the "im going to handfly" this one type of approaches where it was a planned event, or turning off AP a little earlier than planned, but more the "WTF is it doing, click click" moments.
 
Kingairer said:
You should really never get to the point of having to "click click" and fly the airbus, and if you do its probably because you screwed up or are ignorant to what its doing (which is what you told it to). In those moments, sure turn it off including FDs and re-find your ass. Anytime you have to click click and airbus you should be on high alert because something didnt go to plan. This should be the rare exception and not a normal practice. I know that strikes to the core of our inner pilot or the "be a pilot" amongst us, but its the truth. I am not talking about the "im going to handfly" this one type of approaches where it was a planned event, or turning off AP a little earlier than planned, but more the "WTF is it doing, click click" moments.
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You can add the MD11 to that same point. I don't believe i've ever had to or been up front when that was needed in 8 years on the airplane.
 
mikecweb said:
You can add the MD11 to that same point. I don't believe i've ever had to or been up front when that was needed in 8 years on the airplane.
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On both the little-big (330) and big-little (321) Airbii, I've certainly had to slam the push to level off button before when it was doing some vnav thing I didn't understand (im looking at you RYDER and GOATZ arrivals), and I've had to pull heading quickly (mostly when I forgot to pull it after asking the other pilot to extend my final approach). And i know ive had to go selected speed because the approach activated (or the approach didnt activate). But I honestly can't remember a time where I (or the other pilot I was flying with) dumped the autopilot or auto thrust because they weren't doing what we wanted them to do.
 
I mean in that sense, I’d argue the 737 doesn’t just do weird stuff you didn’t tell it to either. VNAV descents are kinda wonky sometimes when it does seemingly non-sensical stuff with pitch and power, but I seem to find that messing with it less/not intervening a bunch, normally results in the desired end state with a lot less stress. The times I’ve had to click out have most definitely been my fault/inexperience not knowing what I’d done. There are a couple gotchas, but I find those to be more corner-cases than anything, or in reality, just common pilot errors that result in it not doing what you want it to.
 
BobDDuck said:
On both the little-big (330) and big-little (321) Airbii, I've certainly had to slam the push to level off button before when it was doing some vnav thing I didn't understand (im looking at you RYDER and GOATZ arrivals), and I've had to pull heading quickly (mostly when I forgot to pull it after asking the other pilot to extend my final approach). And i know ive had to go selected speed because the approach activated (or the approach didnt activate). But I honestly can't remember a time where I (or the other pilot I was flying with) dumped the autopilot or auto thrust because they weren't doing what we wanted them to do.
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Had to do it a couple times when arming APPR and the airplane decided “There’s the glide slope up there, I need it NAO!” and pitched up fairly abruptly and near firewalled the thrust trying to capture it. I think that was an old software bug that’s largely been fixed though. Definitely took a quick “no, we’re not gonna do that” reaction and turning everything off.
 
///AMG said:
I mean in that sense, I’d argue the 737 doesn’t just do weird stuff you didn’t tell it to either. VNAV descents are kinda wonky sometimes when it does seemingly non-sensical stuff with pitch and power, but I seem to find that messing with it less/not intervening a bunch, normally results in the desired end state with a lot less stress. The times I’ve had to click out have most definitely been my fault/inexperience not knowing what I’d done. There are a couple gotchas, but I find those to be more corner-cases than anything, or in reality, just common pilot errors that result in it not doing what you want it to.
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For me, I’ve clicked off a few times when everything is correct and it just “feels weird”, only to be told that the “weirdness” is normal in that airframe. It’s nice to have somebody to nurse you through those moments in a new airframe.
 
JordanD said:
Had to do it a couple times when arming APPR and the airplane decided “There’s the glide slope up there, I need it NAO!” and pitched up fairly abruptly and near firewalled the thrust trying to capture it. I think that was an old software bug that’s largely been fixed though. Definitely took a quick “no, we’re not gonna do that” reaction and turning everything off.
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I'd go for hitting APPR again first to cancel the approach. But yeah... that's a reason to dump the ap.
 
JordanD said:
Had to do it a couple times when arming APPR and the airplane decided “There’s the glide slope up there, I need it NAO!” and pitched up fairly abruptly and near firewalled the thrust trying to capture it. I think that was an old software bug that’s largely been fixed though. Definitely took a quick “no, we’re not gonna do that” reaction and turning everything off.
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Were you in one of the earlier 320s? If so, if you still have a ship number, that's an anomaly that should have been noted beause there was some sort of update for that a few years ago.
 
BobDDuck said:
On both the little-big (330) and big-little (321) Airbii, I've certainly had to slam the push to level off button before when it was doing some vnav thing I didn't understand (im looking at you RYDER and GOATZ arrivals), and I've had to pull heading quickly (mostly when I forgot to pull it after asking the other pilot to extend my final approach). And i know ive had to go selected speed because the approach activated (or the approach didnt activate). But I honestly can't remember a time where I (or the other pilot I was flying with) dumped the autopilot or auto thrust because they weren't doing what we wanted them to do.
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Coming into PHX once the 321 was all “BIPBIPBIP, you’ve got it” in managed descent at an intermediate level off and I was all “mmmph push to level off.” For whatever reason, undetermined.

“Okay then”

But yeah, I don’t recall a circumstance in line flying where it became punch everything off.
 
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