UPS MD-11 crash at SDF

DE727UPS said:
I'm reading the exact opposite. What the NTSB is saying was not possible. How could the bell have come on 37 secs after takeoff thrust was set if they never got above 400 AGL (they didn't) and weren't in the air for 25 seconds (they weren't unless they had a 12 second takeoff roll). Something doesn't seem right.
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The bell for the fire alerts aren't inhibited during T/O so the lights weren't flashing but the bell was ringing? I'm not questioning what the folks in the cockpit did because I think they did everything they could and the issue that arose was completely out of their control. I'm just seeking clarity for my own selfish reasons. I like to know what happened.
 
arkavgal said:
Do you mind explaining? Thank you.
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The most important thing at V1, with regards to a “normal” engine failure/fire, is to maintain positive control of the aircraft, fly to a safe level off altitude, clean it up (gear/flaps) on schedule and then methodically take care of the problem. The big red light on the glare shield can be very distracting so it’s inhibited at such a critical time. The fire bell can be cancelled immediately by pushing the master warning light but the fire handle and level 3 alert will still remain as a reminder of the issue.

A “normal” fire warning can be handled fairly quickly after dept but it must be done methodically so you don’t create more problems by shutting down the wrong engine. It’s more important to fly the aircraft and clear obstacles prior to grabbing a handful and pulling red handles.

What UPS 2976 experienced was anything but a “normal” engine failure/ fire. They basically got the Kobayashi Maru scenario where no answer was correct….
 
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arkavgal said:
Is the purpose of no alarm after V1 to avoid a snap judgment to abort the landing after V1? Wouldn't every second matter with extinguishing an engine fire? I would think a lot can happen in 25 seconds.
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If the plane will get in the air, you go after V1. There is no snap judgment. There have been events where the plane wouldn't fly (gust lock in place etc) and at that point you become a test pilot and just hope for the right answer/best outcome. In general, taking a plane with a burning engine into the air sucks, but is a manageable event. Most companies now train some kind of quick return scenario, and all four major OEMs have procedures for starting in on getting the fire out quickly. Where things can go wrong is if it is an engine fire caused by something structural, which is appearing to be where this accident is headed.
 
Hiboglossi said:
Interesting, I've never had a conversation about that in my time flying the 767 & 757. Of course, it's probably different in our case since it's the only type in our fleet. I do occasionally hear people say they wish we'd get 777s.
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It was a sensitive topic for my base which was LAX because the 321neo took the Hawaii flying. So naturally that made the convos about airplanes pretty emotional when all of that stuff was gone overnight.
 
mikecweb said:
I honestly remembered this differently. I see the reference in our system notes saying that you'll get the bell after the inhibits are released. I thought you got the bell at anytime. So if the NTSB readout of the CVR is correct than they are saying the alert was before V1?
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Brian29 said:
View attachment 86627
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Yea which seems to point that the bell would be inhibited. So graduate level question. If the fire bell sounds prior to V1, will it continue to sound after V1 or would it inhibit itself at v1. Also I can't imagine not canceling the bell as soon as it starts. Lots of questions about this aspect that will eventually be revealed.
 
mikecweb said:
Yea which seems to point that the bell would be inhibited. So graduate level question. If the fire bell sounds prior to V1, will it continue to sound after V1 or would it inhibit itself at v1. Also I can't imagine not canceling the bell as soon as it starts. Lots of questions about this aspect that will eventually be revealed.
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Wait did I read that wrong? I read it as the ENGINE FIRE alerts are NOT inhibited during takeoff, just the lights. Wouldn’t that imply that the fire bell should sound? Or are the alerts that are not inhibited just the CAS messages?
 
Yeah, reads to me that all the alerts would be present and at V1 the Master Warning lights would extinguished. Been a while since I’ve had an engine fire on takeoff in the sim so I can’t recall exactly.
 
I do not directly recall ever hearing the “Engine (1/2/3) Fire” with the associated bell in a simulated V1 cut with an engine fire however. Not that that means much, my memory of such things usually sucks so…
 
mikecweb said:
Yea which seems to point that the bell would be inhibited. So graduate level question. If the fire bell sounds prior to V1, will it continue to sound after V1 or would it inhibit itself at v1. Also I can't imagine not canceling the bell as soon as it starts. Lots of questions about this aspect that will eventually be revealed.
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Yup, the answers will be revealed in time.
 
mikecweb said:
Yea which seems to point that the bell would be inhibited. So graduate level question. If the fire bell sounds prior to V1, will it continue to sound after V1 or would it inhibit itself at v1. Also I can't imagine not canceling the bell as soon as it starts. Lots of questions about this aspect that will eventually be revealed.
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717 based experience only...

The bell and master caution go away at V1 if they have triggered prior. It's been almost double digit years since I was on the plane, but I remember that if an instructor set the engine failure to occur a knot or two too slow from V1, you'd get a chirp of the bell and a brief flash of the master warning light, and then nothing for a while.

I think @Richman has way more (and more recent) knowledge of the #notreallyaboeing though.
 
mikecweb said:
To start, V1 has nothing to do with landing.
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When I read "Level 3 alerts and associated MASTER WARNING lights are inhibited," I took "alerts" to mean audible alarms as well, but I guess it just means lights. That's where I got confused.

I know what V1, Vr, and V2 mean. I understand that V1 is the point of no return on the runway. I agree, it has nothing to do with landing.
 
arkavgal said:
When I read "Level 3 alerts and associated MASTER WARNING lights are inhibited," I took "alerts" to mean audible alarms as well, but I guess it just means lights. That's where I got confused.

I know what V1, Vr, and V2 mean. I understand that V1 is the point of no return on the runway. I agree, it has nothing to do with landing.
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Ok well you said abort the landing in your post.
 
A300Capt said:
The most important thing at V1, with regards to a “normal” engine failure/fire, is to maintain positive control of the aircraft, fly to a safe level off altitude, clean it up (gear/flaps) on schedule and then methodically take care of the problem. The big red light on the glare shield can be very distracting so it’s inhibited at such a critical time. The fire bell can be cancelled immediately by pushing the master warning light but the fire handle and level 3 alert will still remain as a reminder of the issue.

A “normal” fire warning can be handled fairly quickly after dept but it must be done methodically so you don’t create more problems by shutting down the wrong engine. It’s more important to fly the aircraft and clear obstacles prior to grabbing a handful and pulling red handles.

What UPS 2976 experienced was anything but a “normal” engine failure/ fire. They basically got the Kobayashi Maru scenario where no answer was correct….
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Thank you for explaining this. It was illuminating.
 
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