UPS MD-11 crash at SDF

[Karnage]

We make it back to HNL full out of SLC no problem on the 321. Temperature is a bit of an issue but I think we've been pretty unrestricted out of Vegas as well as long as we aren't trying to take off between 10am and 6pm in the summer. But AWA was limited in their ops there with the 757 as well.

You have the two ACTs (or whatever Airbus calls the extra fuel tanks) right? 4th floor bean counters decided one is enough when, well, it isn’t.

 

[jtrain609]

Are passengers not getting where they want to go because of that 5%?



We make it back to HNL full out of SLC no problem on the 321. Temperature is a bit of an issue but I think we've been pretty unrestricted out of Vegas as well as long as we aren't trying to take off between 10am and 6pm in the summer. But AWA was limited in their ops there with the 757 as well.

What weight are you doing that at? It also helps y'all don't have to pole vault the Wasatch.

Edit: when I say weight, I really mean how much fuel.

 

[mightynimbus]

To think, 3 dead crew set the stage to debate all this....ad nauseum

.....thank you for your service

 

[tcco94]

To think, 3 dead crew set the stage to debate all this....ad nauseum

.....thank you for your service

It is a pilot forum after all. Threads get derailed. It’s not a disrespect to the crew that passed… come on …

 

[ERfly]

You know I’m watching the NTSB briefings, and maybe it’s just me but I feel like a key piece of information that they know they aren’t telling us. Im going to generously say reporters are not experts so they don’t know to ask, although how much research would this take. The piece of information Inwoukd like to hear is did the engine fall off after or before V1. I’m not saying it’s a conspiracy, that’s not at all where I’m going with this, I just think based on the information they have they would know this by now.
I also think they know what the bell was. I mean I’m only a CRJ pilot, but I feel like it wouldn’t be that hard to have an MD-11 pilot listen and say hey what’s that bell.
And before anyone gets mad I’m not saying the investigators are doing a bad job or intentionally concealing stuff. They may have very god reasons for not releasing these details. I’m merely posting what I thought of when I heard the briefings.

The "bell" on the MD-11 tells you what it is. After the bell sounds, she then states which engine is on fire. And as best as I can remember, only engine and APU fire warnings are a "bell". All the other fire warnings are a triple tone alert.

They did say the bell started 37 secs after takeoff power was set. That's a LONG takeoff roll. Juan Brown ran a simulation at the same weight and it looks like it came on right after V1 (not sure what sim he used). But 37 seconds would take you past V1, even heavy, I would think.

The Fire Warning Bell and aural alert is inhibited in the MD-11 from V1 until 400' AGL or greater than 25 seconds airborne.

 

[EIR]

For someone that isn't intimately familiar with cargo ops, is the building/ cargo GSE really built around one make/ model of an airframe? Unless I'm misunderstanding this, and I hope I am, is the operation tailored that specifically to the MD-11 size and shape, with never planning on adapting to the next generation of freighters?

Hopefully this picture helps to explain the loading process. Having the cargo door behind the wing will make UPS change their loading process. The wings aren't aircraft specific. In regards to the next Gen freighters, that've above my pay.

 

[DE727UPS]

The Fire Warning Bell and aural alert is inhibited in the MD-11 from V1 until 400' AGL or greater than 25 seconds airborne.

Thanks. Sounds different from the 75/76. From the systems manual: "The Master WARNING lights and fire bell are inhibited for fire during part of the takeoff. The inhibit begins at nose gear extension during rotation and continues until the first to occur: • 400feet AGL, or • 20seconds elapsed time."

 

[ERfly]

Thanks. Sounds different from the 75/76. From the systems manual: "The Master WARNING lights and fire bell are inhibited for fire during part of the takeoff. The inhibit begins at nose gear extension during rotation and continues until the first to occur: • 400feet AGL, or • 20seconds elapsed time."

Yeah, it is different. After V1 up to 400'AGL or 25 airborne, the only thing that happens is the light in the Fire Handle in the overhead comes on the Fuel Lever fire light comes on. The bell, aural alert and Master Warning light come on after that time.

 

[Hiboglossi]

It is a pilot forum after all. Threads get derailed. It’s not a disrespect to the crew that passed… come on …

Yep. Looks like we had a derailment discussing almost the exact same type of stuff in the thread about the DCA midair earlier this year:

Post in thread 'PSA CRJ-700 AA midair collision'

Feb 27, 2025

DCA can handle 757’s, we don’t see many because there is poor demand for that airframe on routes serving DCA.

Few gates at DCA can handle A321s nevermind 757s.

• N826AW

 

[mikecweb]

The "bell" on the MD-11 tells you what it is. After the bell sounds, she then states which engine is on fire. And as best as I can remember, only engine and APU fire warnings are a "bell". All the other fire warnings are a triple tone alert.


The Fire Warning Bell and aural alert is inhibited in the MD-11 from V1 until 400' AGL or greater than 25 seconds airborne.

I honestly remembered this differently. I see the reference in our system notes saying that you'll get the bell after the inhibits are released. I thought you got the bell at anytime. So if the NTSB readout of the CVR is correct than they are saying the alert was before V1?

 

[DE727UPS]

So if the NTSB readout of the CVR is correct than they are saying the alert was before V1?

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.

 

[ERfly]

I honestly remembered this differently. I see the reference in our system notes saying that you'll get the bell after the inhibits are released. I thought you got the bell at anytime. So if the NTSB readout of the CVR is correct than they are saying the alert was before V1?

Sounds like it.

Truth be told, I had to go back and look in the systems notes, too, for specifics, but I remember it. In fact, if you go look at the V1 Cut videos on PFC with Mark Klair, it demonstrates this exact thing. It shows the Fire Handle and Fuel Lever lights coming on, but no bell until well after they're airborne.

 

[A300Capt]

From an old system manual I had on my iPad…

18.01.03 ALERT INHIBITS

18.01.03.01 TAKEOFF INHIBITS

Level 3 alerts and associated MASTER WARNING lights are inhibited from V1 to 400 feet RA, but no longer than 25 seconds in-air. Level 2 or 1 alerts and associated MASTER CAUTION lights are inhibited at throttle advance or 80 knots or V1-20 knots. The takeoff inhibits are released at 400 feet RA (or in-air for 25 seconds), or 1000 feet barometric altitude above the departure airport (or in-air for 120 seconds).

Level 0 alerts are not inhibited.

Takeoff inhibited exceptions are as follows:

• The Level 3 ENGINE FIRE alerts are not inhibited during takeoff, but the associated MASTER WARNING lights are inhibited at V1.

• Tire Failure: The MASTER CAUTION lights are inhibited from V1-20 to 400 feet RA or less than 25 seconds. (THE LEVEL 2 ALERT AND VOICE ARE NOT INHIBITED)

• The Level 1 FUEL DUMP ON alert is not inhibited.

 

[tcco94]

Yep. Looks like we had a derailment discussing almost the exact same type of stuff in the thread about the DCA midair earlier this year:

Post in thread 'PSA CRJ-700 AA midair collision'

Feb 27, 2025

DCA can handle 757’s, we don’t see many because there is poor demand for that airframe on routes serving DCA.

Few gates at DCA can handle A321s nevermind 757s.

• N826AW

Other than missing the intl side of ops, so nice not flying 757/767 anymore and having this “nothing can replace this jet - we should be buying more of these” convos every single trip.

 

[Hiboglossi]

Other than missing the intl side of ops, so nice not flying 757/767 anymore and having this “nothing can replace this jet - we should be buying more of these” convos every single trip.

Interesting, I've never had a conversation about that in my time flying the 767 & 757. Of course, it's probably different in our case since it's the only type in our fleet. I do occasionally hear people say they wish we'd get 777s.

 

[knot4u]

From an old system manual I had on my iPad…

18.01.03 ALERT INHIBITS

18.01.03.01 TAKEOFF INHIBITS

Level 3 alerts and associated MASTER WARNING lights are inhibited from V1 to 400 feet RA, but no longer than 25 seconds in-air. Level 2 or 1 alerts and associated MASTER CAUTION lights are inhibited at throttle advance or 80 knots or V1-20 knots. The takeoff inhibits are released at 400 feet RA (or in-air for 25 seconds), or 1000 feet barometric altitude above the departure airport (or in-air for 120 seconds).

Level 0 alerts are not inhibited.

Takeoff inhibited exceptions are as follows:

• The Level 3 ENGINE FIRE alerts are not inhibited during takeoff, but the associated MASTER WARNING lights are inhibited at V1.

• Tire Failure: The MASTER CAUTION lights are inhibited from V1-20 to 400 feet RA or less than 25 seconds. (THE LEVEL 2 ALERT AND VOICE ARE NOT INHIBITED)

• The Level 1 FUEL DUMP ON alert is not inhibited.

So if I'm reading this right the bell the CVR recording reported by the NTSB is accurate and that system was functioning as designed?

 

[BobDDuck]

The 717 has the same system architecture as the MD11. It would put the lights on in the fire handle and fuel shutoff control (I think?) But you wouldn't get any other alerts between V1 and 400 feet, at which point it would play everything you missed.

 

[DE727UPS]

So if I'm reading this right the bell the CVR recording reported by the NTSB is accurate and that system was functioning as designed?

I'm reading the exact opposite. What the NTSB is saying was not possible. How could the bell have come on 37 secs after takeoff thrust was set if they never got above 400 AGL (they didn't) and weren't in the air for 25 seconds (they weren't unless they had a 12 second takeoff roll). Something doesn't seem right.

 

[arkavgal]

The 717 has the same system architecture as the MD11. It would put the lights on in the fire handle and fuel shutoff control (I think?) But you wouldn't get any other alerts between V1 and 400 feet, at which point it would play everything you missed.

Is the purpose of no alarm after V1 to avoid a snap judgment to abort the landing after V1? Wouldn't every second matter with extinguishing an engine fire? I would think a lot can happen in 25 seconds.

IIRC, the NTSB said the bell was playing from some point during the takeoff until it stopped recording. Doesn’t that mean it came in before or right at V1?

 

[A300Capt]

So if I'm reading this right the bell the CVR recording reported by the NTSB is accurate and that system was functioning as designed?

Not sure what was working based on what the NTSB as briefed so far. It’s been 4 years since I retired and flew the MD so my memory is a little fuzzy. Nowadays I’m barely able to keep up with the bells and whistles on my 2020 Honda Ridgeline.

I’m assuming they were hearing the fire bell tone and b!tching Betty’s “Engine 1 Fire”. If the fire occurred just prior to V1 then they would’ve seen the red master warning light on the glare shield. At V1 the master warning light is inhibited basically until 400’ or 25 sec later. I always used the red master warning light during recurrent as my eng fire go/no go. If you heard the engine fire warning and the red light wasn’t on….you continued the takeoff (you’re past V1). If you heard the engine fire warning fire warning and the red warning light was illuminated…you rejected (you’re below V1). Basically…no light-GO! Red light on-STOP!