Update: UPS flight dispatchers are asking to be paid like counterparts at Delta, American

[Flying Saluki]

Was just looking at some numbers. Assuming they're accurate, UPS pays about 5% less than United at the start, and about 10% less than United at the top. But the cost of housing seems significantly lower (on the order about half) in SDF than in ORD. Now add in that UPS still has a pension, and the question begs: Are you sure you want to be paid like United, et al?

To quote Luke Skywalker "This may not go the way you think."

 

[womanpilot73]

Was just looking at some numbers. Assuming they're accurate, UPS pays about 5% less than United at the start, and about 10% less than United at the top. But the cost of housing seems significantly lower (on the order about half) in SDF than in ORD. Now add in that UPS still has a pension, and the question begs: Are you sure you want to be paid like United, et al?

To quote Luke Skywalker "This may not go the way you think."

You can’t come to such a conclusion when you’re only looking at baseline numbers, and I’m not even sure that you’re correct there as I don’t have the other major’s figures in front of me.

Again, it is many articles that make up a contract and the entire picture must be considered when making such statements. You can’t just look at baseline figures.

Since you do not work here, and are not on our negotiating team with all available information at your disposal, it’s probably best to not post inaccurate and incomplete info regarding our pay. Thanks.


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[who'swho]

Was just looking at some numbers. Assuming they're accurate, UPS pays about 5% less than United at the start, and about 10% less than United at the top. But the cost of housing seems significantly lower (on the order about half) in SDF than in ORD. Now add in that UPS still has a pension, and the question begs: Are you sure you want to be paid like United, et al?

To quote Luke Skywalker "This may not go the way you think."

Now compare UA to DL as well as cost of living. You'll find that UA is under paid when you look at cost of living. Which in turn means UPS is under paid (provided you put them on the same level as the 3 legacy carriers).

 

[lionrock]

You can’t come to such a conclusion when you’re only looking at baseline numbers, and I’m not even sure that you’re correct there as I don’t have the other major’s figures in front of me.

Again, it is many articles that make up a contract and the entire picture must be considered when making such statements. You can’t just look at baseline figures.

Since you do not work here, and are not on our negotiating team with all available information at your disposal, it’s probably best to not post inaccurate and incomplete info regarding our pay. Thanks.


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Look, I agree and support your and other UPS dispatchers' cause but if your goal is to have an open dialogue in this forum (possibly sway the opinion of those who disagree with you), being outright defensive of any opposing points from other people is not the right way to do it.

Don't keep rebutting other people by saying "you don't work here... not on our team..." because that doesn't exactly promote the healthy discussion that you're trying to have.

 

[Flying Saluki]

You can’t come to such a conclusion when you’re only looking at baseline numbers, and I’m not even sure that you’re correct there as I don’t have the other major’s figures in front of me.

Again, it is many articles that make up a contract and the entire picture must be considered when making such statements. You can’t just look at baseline figures.

Since you do not work here, and are not on our negotiating team with all available information at your disposal, it’s probably best to not post inaccurate and incomplete info regarding our pay. Thanks.

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As you say, the entire picture must be considered, and that's what I was (sort of) doing. I was not looking just at baseline wage numbers. I was also looking at what it costs to live in SDF vs. ORD. Yes, UAL may pay more than UPS. But if I had to chose between the two right now, I'd go with UPS because the money goes further. Again, this is assuming the numbers are accurate. That's not even considering the pension question.

It's the same point I made in the thread about the Dispatcher Pay spreadsheet. You look at a regional like Horizon, and on the surface they appear to be the best paying. But when you consider what it costs to live in PDX, I'd argue they are the worst paying regional out there.

The larger point here is that people like to make an apples-to-apples comparison based on size and scope of operation (i.e. airplane size). And, I'd argue that is a false comparison, or at least an incomplete one.

By the way, I want to make clear that I am not against your cause. I'm pointing out the fallacy of the arguments you are constructing. More to the point, I'm pointing out what the position of UPS management is likely to be, and advising you to come up with a better reason than "Because <insert major> gets paid...X."

 

[Flying Saluki]

Now compare UA to DL as well as cost of living. You'll find that UA is under paid when you look at cost of living. Which in turn means UPS is under paid (provided you put them on the same level as the 3 legacy carriers).

If you're opinion is that UAL is underpaid, that only reinforces what I was saying; i.e. that UPS is offering a better deal than some people think.

 

[womanpilot73]

Look, I agree and support your and other UPS dispatchers' cause but if your goal is to have an open dialogue in this forum (possibly sway the opinion of those who disagree with you), being outright defensive of any opposing points from other people is not the right way to do it.

Don't keep rebutting other people by saying "you don't work here... not on our team..." because that doesn't exactly promote the healthy discussion that you're trying to have.

I’m sorry that your perception is that my response was “defensive” but that is simply not correct. What I replied was, the information you’ve provided here is inaccurate and incomplete. I also stated that without working here or being on our negotiating team, you do not have all info at your disposal to make such a conclusion and suggested that without having the full picture, it’s best to not make such inaccurate comments.

That IS having an “open dialogue” in my opinion. If it was accurate info, I’d have simply liked his post and agreed with him. These weren’t opposing points he provided that I was disagreeing with. It was simply incomplete and inaccurate info. When someone posts something accurate here, I agree.

I don’t mean to sound harsh but I haven’t got any more time to devote to taking care of people’s feelings here. The bottom line is that I’m to the point when I speak. If you need me to write in a way that is anything other than direct, I apologize, but that’s just not me. Anyone who doesn’t work here who posts inaccuracies regarding our contract, I will correct them by responding with a rebuttal. It’s nothing more than that. There is no defense. There was no emotion in my post.

I swear, I’m too old to have to explain myself lol... We are all grown ups here aren’t we?

And that’s all I have to say about that...


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[womanpilot73]

As you say, the entire picture must be considered, and that's what I was (sort of) doing. I was not looking just at baseline wage numbers. I was also looking at what it costs to live in SDF vs. ORD. Yes, UAL may pay more than UPS. But if I had to chose between the two right now, I'd go with UPS because the money goes further. Again, this is assuming the numbers are accurate. That's not even considering the pension question.

It's the same point I made in the thread about the Dispatcher Pay spreadsheet. You look at a regional like Horizon, and on the surface they appear to be the best paying. But when you consider what it costs to live in PDX, I'd argue they are the worst paying regional out there.

The larger point here is that people like to make an apples-to-apples comparison based on size and scope of operation (i.e. airplane size). And, I'd argue that is a false comparison, or at least an incomplete one.

By the way, I want to make clear that I am not against your cause. I'm pointing out the fallacy of the arguments you are constructing. More to the point, I'm pointing out what the position of UPS management is likely to be, and advising you to come up with a better reason than "Because gets paid...X."

I appreciate your perspective. Don’t get me wrong. It’s great to have dialogue about all of these different aspects. I was merely correcting the inaccuracies of your conclusion. Also, you can’t take pay and cost of living alone to make a good comparison of airline pay. Again, there are SO many other things built into the contracts that changes those figures you compiled. I know you aren’t caught up in a pay figure alone in your research but you’re missing a lot of other data to formulate an accurate conclusion.

As far as needing to come up with another reason as to why UPS Dispatchers should have at a minimum industry standard pay, sorry but I don’t need to do that. There is a standard. We are now significantly below it. Unacceptable. Period.




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[F9DXER]

It's the same point I made in the thread about the Dispatcher Pay spreadsheet. You look at a regional like Horizon, and on the surface they appear to be the best paying. But when you consider what it costs to live in PDX, I'd argue they are the worst paying regional out there.
QUOTE]


Just to add another thing, Oregon has no sales tax so that might end up being fairly comparable.

 

[Altimeter]

As you say, the entire picture must be considered, and that's what I was (sort of) doing. I was not looking just at baseline wage numbers. I was also looking at what it costs to live in SDF vs. ORD. Yes, UAL may pay more than UPS. But if I had to chose between the two right now, I'd go with UPS because the money goes further. Again, this is assuming the numbers are accurate. That's not even considering the pension question.

It's the same point I made in the thread about the Dispatcher Pay spreadsheet. You look at a regional like Horizon, and on the surface they appear to be the best paying. But when you consider what it costs to live in PDX, I'd argue they are the worst paying regional out there.

The larger point here is that people like to make an apples-to-apples comparison based on size and scope of operation (i.e. airplane size). And, I'd argue that is a false comparison, or at least an incomplete one.

By the way, I want to make clear that I am not against your cause. I'm pointing out the fallacy of the arguments you are constructing. More to the point, I'm pointing out what the position of UPS management is likely to be, and advising you to come up with a better reason than "Because <insert major> gets paid...X."

There is no conversation here. It’s you agree UPS needs to be paid the most or you’re wrong. Even asking questions that go against “the rising tide” are shut down by “grown ups”. It’s pretty sad that just questions are battled back by, “you don’t know what you’re talking about.” Which is the point! We aren’t sure, so we ask questions.

 

[womanpilot73]

There is no conversation here. It’s you agree UPS needs to be paid the most or you’re wrong. Even asking questions that go against “the rising tide” are shut down by “grown ups”. It’s pretty sad that just questions are battled back by, “you don’t know what you’re talking about.” Which is the point! We aren’t sure, so we ask questions.

If you asked questions from the beginning, this would have been an entirely different conversation. I, and many others, didn’t see questions by you in your early posts, or any desire to have a conversation. On the contrary, I saw ridiculous comments from a misinformed perspective, which you later admitted to.

Again, your comments now are to an extreme. If you oppose the rising tide then so be it. If you oppose UPS wanting to get a fair contract, then so be it. You’re entitled to your opinions. I’m not sure what you get out of this, but more power to ya.

I didn’t start this thread, and certainly didn’t author or title the article that started it, but I have and will correct misinformed or inaccurate/incomplete comments regarding our contract. That includes your comments early on about how unhappy UPS’ers should seek a mainline job if we want mainline pay, and one of my personal favorites, “moving people will alllllways be more volatile than moving boxes”. Or how about your comment that we, as an industry leading major airline in the past, should accept pay somewhere between a regional and a legacy carrier? Oh, don’t forget your comment about how ridiculous you think we are for wanting a fair contract that includes our pension? Seriously dude, you want to say whatever you want, however you want, and then expect no one to disagree and stand up to your remarks. Although many have, you’ve chosen to only condemn me for standing up and calling BS.

There could have been decent convo here, and a great show of union employees supporting fellow brothers & sisters in the trenches of negotiations. But you chose early on to take a whole other stance, which again, is your prerogative.

And regardless of anything said here, you’ll have our support when the shoe is on the other foot. Because that’s how we roll... #unity





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[Altimeter]

If you asked questions from the beginning, this would have been an entirely different conversation. I, and many others, didn’t see questions by you in your early posts, or any desire to have a conversation. On the contrary, I saw ridiculous comments from a misinformed perspective, which you later admitted to.

Again, your comments now are to an extreme. If you oppose the rising tide then so be it. If you oppose UPS wanting to get a fair contract, then so be it. You’re entitled to your opinions. I’m not sure what you get out of this, but more power to ya.

I didn’t start this thread, and certainly didn’t author or title the article that started it, but I have and will correct misinformed or inaccurate/incomplete comments regarding our contract. That includes your comments early on about how unhappy UPS’ers should seek a mainline job if we want mainline pay, and one of my personal favorites, “moving people will alllllways be more volatile than moving boxes”. Or how about your comment that we, as an industry leading major airline in the past, should accept pay somewhere between a regional and a legacy carrier? Oh, don’t forget your comment about how ridiculous you think we are for wanting a fair contract that includes our pension? Seriously dude, you want to say whatever you want, however you want, and then expect no one to disagree and stand up to your remarks. Although many have, you’ve chosen to only condemn me for standing up and calling BS.

There could have been decent convo here, and a great show of union employees supporting fellow brothers & sisters in the trenches of negotiations. But you chose early on to take a whole other stance, which again, is your prerogative.

And regardless of anything said here, you’ll have our support when the shoe is on the other foot. Because that’s how we roll... #unity





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I’m all for disagreement, you forgot to mention all the times where I said I might be wrong, or I don’t know, or that’s a good point I didn’t consider. It’s a complicated issue that most of on here are intrigued about because it might affect us one day down the line, but just going straight to, Go get em Brown!, is boring. It’s a forum for ideas. You’re trying to win an argument. I, and others, have proposed opposing views most likely because we like to be engaged and interested. When you go after someone and not their ideas (you shouldn’t post this, aren’t we grown ups?, etc) you are not having “open dialogue”.

 

[Altimeter]

If you asked questions from the beginning, this would have been an entirely different conversation. I, and many others, didn’t see questions by you in your early posts, or any desire to have a conversation. On the contrary, I saw ridiculous comments from a misinformed perspective, which you later admitted to.

Again, your comments now are to an extreme. If you oppose the rising tide then so be it. If you oppose UPS wanting to get a fair contract, then so be it. You’re entitled to your opinions. I’m not sure what you get out of this, but more power to ya.

I didn’t start this thread, and certainly didn’t author or title the article that started it, but I have and will correct misinformed or inaccurate/incomplete comments regarding our contract. That includes your comments early on about how unhappy UPS’ers should seek a mainline job if we want mainline pay, and one of my personal favorites, “moving people will alllllways be more volatile than moving boxes”. Or how about your comment that we, as an industry leading major airline in the past, should accept pay somewhere between a regional and a legacy carrier? Oh, don’t forget your comment about how ridiculous you think we are for wanting a fair contract that includes our pension? Seriously dude, you want to say whatever you want, however you want, and then expect no one to disagree and stand up to your remarks. Although many have, you’ve chosen to only condemn me for standing up and calling BS.

There could have been decent convo here, and a great show of union employees supporting fellow brothers & sisters in the trenches of negotiations. But you chose early on to take a whole other stance, which again, is your prerogative.

And regardless of anything said here, you’ll have our support when the shoe is on the other foot. Because that’s how we roll... #unity





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One point I made that you brought up again is about the volatility of moving people than cargo. I’ve thought about that statement a lot. It’s just true. I’ve heard so many stories of defeat (and some redemption) of dispatchers laid off from 9/11. It affected our industry massively, did it slow down shipments all that much? When a plane goes down anywhere in the world, does it stop people from buying stuff that needs to be shipped? Is there a decent size of the population that has an irrational fear of deliveries? AA/DL/UA are Airlines first. Yea we all declared bankruptcy for 4 really obvious reasons.

 

[womanpilot73]

I’m all for disagreement, you forgot to mention all the times where I said I might be wrong, or I don’t know, or that’s a good point I didn’t consider. It’s a complicated issue that most of on here are intrigued about because it might affect us one day down the line, but just going straight to, Go get em Brown!, is boring. It’s a forum for ideas. You’re trying to win an argument. I, and others, have proposed opposing views most likely because we like to be engaged and interested. When you go after someone and not their ideas (you shouldn’t post this, aren’t we grown ups?, etc) you are not having “open dialogue”.

You’re entitled to your opinion. Just realize that if you constantly state your opinion as fact, you’ll get responses from people who don’t agree. Especially when said opinions are inflammatory.

As to your claim I didn’t mention your admission of being wrong with some of the outlandish comments you made, read my first paragraph - I addressed that very thing in the last sentence.

It’s your prerogative to not support (Go Brown!) but instead make instigative comments (not boring). Just know that people will respond to you in kind. Many have.

There is no argument trying to be won here. There are merely replies correcting inaccuracies.

And lastly, “aren’t we all grown ups here?” was not a reply to a post that had ideas as you say, but rather a post that scolded me for being direct. And to be honest, was a lighthearted joke. But when you see everything I say as negative, I can understand why you wouldn’t get my humor.

In any event, best to you and your new job. As I suggested before, get to know your contract since this is all new to you. Your turn will be up before you know it and you’ll want to be well informed. An open forum is not the place to discuss the details of one’s contract during negotiations, which is why you haven’t gotten certain answers you’ve wanted here from me. Again, I didn’t start this thread and won’t discuss those things here. Take care.


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[womanpilot73]

One point I made that you brought up again is about the volatility of moving people than cargo. I’ve thought about that statement a lot. It’s just true. I’ve heard so many stories of defeat (and some redemption) of dispatchers laid off from 9/11. It affected our industry massively, did it slow down shipments all that much? When a plane goes down anywhere in the world, does it stop people from buying stuff that needs to be shipped? Is there a decent size of the population that has an irrational fear of deliveries? AA/DL/UA are Airlines first. Yea we all declared bankruptcy for 4 really obvious reasons.

What does any of those things have to do with the job of dispatching? Your original point about pax vs cargo was to state your opinion that because you dispatch aircraft with pax on it, you somehow should make more money than those of us who dispatch aircraft with cargo on it, because “pax will allllllways be more volatile”.

Again, I go back to the point of what is in the back of the plane doesn’t make what we do any different. Your airline dispatches aircraft worldwide. My airline dispatches aircraft worldwide. We have the same license. We do the same job. We operate under the same regulations. I’m confused as to the point you are trying to make?


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[Atlanta]

The point was company based not dispatcher based. What is in the back of a plane can determine at times company profits.

 

[womanpilot73]

The point was company based not dispatcher based. What is in the back of a plane can determine at times company profits.

Actually, his point was stated below:

“There’s just so much more inherent risk moving people over boxes. To say the level of responsibility is equal negates the whole business model. If you want mainline money, work towards a mainline job.”

I believe that he was stating his opinion that we should make less money because apparently we don’t have the same level of responsibility when we dispatch aircraft that carries boxes. Which takes me back to the point of my last post. We all dispatch aircraft worldwide. We all have the same license. We all operate under the same regulations. We all have the same level of responsibility as dispatchers for a major airline.


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[manniax]

One point I made that you brought up again is about the volatility of moving people than cargo. I’ve thought about that statement a lot. It’s just true. I’ve heard so many stories of defeat (and some redemption) of dispatchers laid off from 9/11. It affected our industry massively, did it slow down shipments all that much? When a plane goes down anywhere in the world, does it stop people from buying stuff that needs to be shipped? Is there a decent size of the population that has an irrational fear of deliveries? AA/DL/UA are Airlines first. Yea we all declared bankruptcy for 4 really obvious reasons.

I really don't see your point here. The fact that profits for passenger airlines were more "volatile" than for cargo carriers would seem to indicate that cargo carriers were more profitable/stable companies. In fact, this lack of volatility is probably a large part of why UPS still has a defined pension benefit - and passenger carriers do not. Anyhow, shouldn't a profitable company be able to pay people doing the same job at least the same amount as employees doing that job at a passenger carrier? UPS is fantastically profitable right now. And as previously mentioned, the employees there do not participate in profit sharing, so the only way they can share in that is through their salary (and pension, after they retire.)

 

[Altimeter]

Actually, his point was stated below:

“There’s just so much more inherent risk moving people over boxes. To say the level of responsibility is equal negates the whole business model. If you want mainline money, work towards a mainline job.”

I believe that he was stating his opinion that we should make less money because apparently we don’t have the same level of responsibility when we dispatch aircraft that carries boxes. Which takes me back to the point of my last post. We all dispatch aircraft worldwide. We all have the same license. We all operate under the same regulations. We all have the same level of responsibility as dispatchers for a major airline.


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Yea I'm pretty sure that was early on in the thread, and some good points where made that swayed my position afterward, because I can look at a rational position (whether I initially think its wrong or right), think about it, and adjust my thought or position with new information or positions I had not previously considered. I try not to, however, type back something emotionally a soon as possible from some made up moral high ground, that does not exist. I get that you're emotionally invested in this, but some of us aren't, and I do not see why you seem to feel we can't pose ideas or hypotheticals for discussion. Real discussion too, not just, "you don't what you're talking about exactly so don't get to say anything at all!"

I thought Flying Saluki brought up an interesting point, but he or she got shut down immediately.

Below is a cost of living calculator. SDF cost of living is 10.3% (5.5% Dallas) lower than Fort Worth, 7.7% lower than ATL, and 20.6% lower than ORD. That's pretty interesting. At least interesting enough to explore and discuss.

Then you add the cost of a 401k, which for the sake of simplicity we can say 10% for topped out folks, also assuming you guys do not partake.
DFW 20%, ATL 17%, ORD 30%.

That being said, for $150k avg top out (nice round numbers) for the same standard of living with a couple things considered, you would need $120-125k for DFW/ATL, and $105 for ORD. (This what you'd need to gross in SDF to live comparably)

Now I get you can't or why you wouldn't disclose your pay scale, its at least somewhat confidential, but "IF" UPS's top of scale is close to those figures, would it be fair to in the least make a claim that you are paid fairly? Not that you should or should not get any kind of raise, but that saying you are underpaid compared to AA/DL/UA is not as clear as the gross/net pay amount on your check?

I get adjustments probably need to be made, like what is the worth of flight benefits, the opportunity for a daylight schedule, profit sharing, direct flights, etc.

Cost of Living Calculator - Cost of Living Comparison Index Tool

Now, if your point is to hell with all of you we want a leading contract again, well then that is a different conversation lol (one that I over time have come to realize I'm neither for or against)

 

[crow]

From my experience negotiating a payscale at the regional level (which is obviously much different than the negotiations happening at major carriers) I can say that as far as pay negotiations go the company doesn't care about things such as cost of living in their city vs the cost of living in the city of rival companies. To them, pay is a budget line item they have to justify to the CEO/Board/Shareholders. That's not to say that they don't figure in dynamics of the workplace market when deciding what to pay non-contract employees (for example paying below industry standard wages for staff at headquarters because you conveniently located your company in a smaller community where you happen to the biggest employer vs a bigger city with more opportunities).

Since, however, the company looks strictly at what their cost of labor is relative to their competition within contract work groups (and you had better believe the big wigs talk about this when they get together for industry meetings), it would behoove unions to share contract information amongst themselves and look at the same things the company is: what a dispatcher makes at company A vs at companies B, C, and D. We as a collective of work groups shouldn't factor in cost of living of our peers when fighting for a new labor agreement. Not only is it irrelevant when holding discussions with management (who don't care), it is potentially screwing yourself out of future earnings by saying "My cost of living is x% cheaper than my peers at Smisek Airlines so I shouldn't be trying for as much money as them" AND it does nothing but weaken the bargaining position of your counterparts at other airlines when their next contract comes up. Which, in turn, weakens your position again when your next contract comes up.

The only time the cost of living vs level of pay calculus needs to be done is when you, the individual, decides whether you want to accept a position at company A or if you would rather wait for an opportunity with company B.

Now, if you want to argue the importance and monetary value of Quality of Life items in a contract and how much money each of those items are worth, that is for each union to decide on its own. Personally, I don't think this is a place to argue that math since each company's operation is so different that there is no real way to compare apples to apples on that point. My thoughts on what the discussion should be are: A) #teamGetPaid and B) "we have this in our contract, do you have something similar" and if not then C) "have you guys considered this idea to get added in to your contract?".