Update on Asiana firetruck casualty(video)

[ChasenSFO]

A friend shared this with me today. Very interesting read and video...certainly makes me wonder if the same people who originally wanted persecution will demand more follow up.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Fire-rig-alerted-to-Asiana-victim-before-running-5130278.php

The driver of the first of two San FranciscoFire Department rigs that struck a 16-year-old survivor of the Asiana Airlines plane crash in July was alerted less than 15 minutes earlier to avoid the girl as she lay on the ground, newly obtained camera footage shows.

The footage, taken by a dashboard camera aboard the rig and reviewed Thursday by The Chronicle, sheds new light on the circumstances surrounding the death of Ye Meng Yuan. She survived the crash at San Francisco International Airport, but died after being hit by the fire rigs, according to the San Mateo County coroner.

Several firefighters who responded to the July 6 crash have told investigators they believed Ye was dead and that they had concentrated on rescuing passengers and crew members who were still aboard the burning Boeing 777. No one has reported checking her vital signs, however.

I know very little about crash rescue. In a big crash like UA 232 where passing survivors was being brought up in another thread, I can understand not having time to check the vitals of all the seemingly lifeless pax in a crash with much loss of life. But in a crash with only 2 other fatalities where there isn't death everywhere, I'm very surprised no one took the time to check on the girl. @MikeD, thoughts?

 

[Hopeful Pilot]

How hard would it have been to drive around the girl?

 

[ChasenSFO]

How hard would it have been to drive around the girl?

It's more complicated than that...I'm sure those who know much more than I will give you a better picture.

 

[Hopeful Pilot]

It's more complicated than that...I'm sure those who know much more than I will give you a better picture.

I hope so I have always wanderd why they couldn't just go around

 

[USMCmech]

How hard would it have been to drive around the girl?

Pretty hard when a few feet of foam is covering her up and you never see her.

 

[Hopeful Pilot]

Pretty hard when a few feet of foam is covering her up and you never see her.

That makes sense I understand now, I thought she was just out in the open.

 

[USMCmech]

But in a crash with only 2 other fatalities where there isn't death everywhere, I'm very surprised no one took the time to check on the girl.

Just because there were only 2 other fatalities doesn't mean that he initial scene wasn't complete chaos, even for a large CFR crew.

The general rule for a mass casualty event is that if someone is laying on the ground and not showing obvious signs of life, to move on to someone you can help.

 

[inigo88]

Just because there were only 2 other fatalities doesn't mean that he initial scene wasn't complete chaos, even for a large CFR crew.

The general rule for a mass casualty event is that if someone is laying on the ground and not showing obvious signs of life, to move on to someone you can help.

The article basically says that she was initially not covered with foam and out in the open when they arrived. One FF made a visual assessment, assumed she was the first casualty and they proceeded to lay a line into the fuselage which was still burning. So it seems like one firefighter did see her and was signalling the rigs to steer around her.

Where SFFD is taking flack, especially in the comments of that article, is the lack of an attempt to properly triage the victim by verifying airway, breathing and circulation (ABCs). However in light of the history lesson MikeD recently posted on the UA232 accident, I can see how a plane crash is not a traditional Mass Casualty Incident (MCI) and tending to the post crash fire IS a higher priority then triaging ejected victims.

One thing Mike posted about the UA232 accident really stuck with me: How the fire crews had to pass ejected victims who were still alive on the way to the fire, only to find them dead on arrival once the fire was put out. The response to the Asiana crash seems similar.

I think what may have been negligent was their assumption that the patient was dead without actually verifying ABCs AFTER the fire was out (their primary objective), and their lack of situational awareness to avoid running over the victim even after she had been pointed out during the initial response.

I'm curious to hear what those with more experience have to say though.

 

[exneophyte]

A friend shared this with me today. Very interesting read and video...certainly makes me wonder if the same people who originally wanted persecution will demand more follow up.

Pun intended?

 

[MikeD]

How hard would it have been to drive around the girl?

While I don't know for sure, the only thing I can think of is that at an initial point, she may have been quickly visually assessed by someone, then a warning came out of "a body" at X location. Subsequently during firefighting operations, the "body"...the victim....became covered by foam and could no longer be seen. In moving the trucks while doing "pump and roll" operations, where the driver/crew is maneuvering the rig while also actively firefighting with the turrets, the location of this victim became forgotten as she was covered up and couldn't be seen. That's my benefit of doubt guess, without knowing specific facts.

Just because there were only 2 other fatalities doesn't mean that he initial scene wasn't complete chaos, even for a large CFR crew.

The general rule for a mass casualty event is that if someone is laying on the ground and not showing obvious signs of life, to move on to someone you can help.

Agree, basic triage.

Where SFFD is taking flack, especially in the comments of that article, is the lack of an attempt to properly triage the victim by verifying airway, breathing and circulation (ABCs). However in light of the history lesson MikeD recently posted on the UA232 accident, I can see how a plane crash is not a traditional Mass Casualty Incident (MCI) and tending to the post crash fire IS a higher priority then triaging ejected victims.

With limited personnel initially on scene, before backup arrives, CFR triage dictates that rescue personnel need to tend to the most serious victims first and in the wreckage, if survivable. In this case, and in UA232, a victim thrown from the wreckage or away from the wreckage, will be assumed to be in less immediate danger than victims trapped in a burning wreckage and still alive or attempting to escape. That is why the fire trucks have to get to the scene and begin firefighting operations. They're not ambulances, they are rescue vehicles. Their first priority is firefighting, in order to make the immediate second priority of rescue possible, with a third priority being medical treatment as-able when the first two priorities are relatively under control.

One thing Mike posted about the UA232 accident really stuck with me: How the fire crews had to pass ejected victims who were still alive on the way to the fire, only to find them dead on arrival once the fire was put out. The response to the Asiana crash seems similar.

I think what may have been negligent was their assumption that the patient was dead without actually verifying ABCs AFTER the fire was out (their primary objective), and their lack of situational awareness to avoid running over the victim even after she had been pointed out during the initial response.

I'm curious to hear what those with more experience have to say though.

In the UA232 case, remember that they were an Index B ARFF department that normally deals with fighter jets and GA planes, and some light airliners; who were instantly faced with dealing with a full DC-10 that would normally be going into and out of Index D airports that have double the amount of ARFF vehicles and firefighting equipment and gallonage. They did the best they could with the limited resources they had. Granted, Sioux City was the closest and most suitable airport for the emergency in progress, but the ARFF department was pretty rapidly overwhelmed by the sheer scope, and had to do their best to stay on task and on mission, with the limited resources they had, leaving the job of medical to the follow-on personnel coming from the ANG base; as they already had their hands more than full with just firefighting and rescue. It was a command decision.....one that completely sucked to have to make.....but one which was proper and the best decision in order to try and maximize the number of survivors.

 

[inigo88]

While I don't know for sure, the only thing I can think of is that at an initial point, she may have been quickly visually assessed by someone, then a warning came out of "a body" at X location. Subsequently during firefighting operations, the "body"...the victim....became covered by foam and could no longer be seen. In moving the trucks while doing "pump and roll" operations, where the driver/crew is maneuvering the rig while also actively firefighting with the turrets, the location of this victim became forgotten as she was covered up and couldn't be seen. That's my benefit of doubt guess, without knowing specific facts.

That seems to coincide exactly with the SF Chronicle article.

 

[Jimmy_Norton]

Huh. I thought this thread was going to be an update on her condition. Guess she is still dead.

 

[MikeD]

Pretty hard when a few feet of foam is covering her up and you never see her.

Forgot to add to your comment here: ".....as well as foam/water running down your own windscreen from the roof turret, or getting sprayed onto it from the bumper turret, making visibility an issue even with windshield wipers going. And that's not including the other general chaos going on, while trying to do both truck movement and firefighting at the same time. Truthfully, with as many people as were running all over the place around that accident (which likely couldn't immediately be controlled, just from the general situation), I'm surprised more people weren't almost hit by any number of vehicles.

 

[A Life Aloft]

Forgot to add to your comment here: ".....as well as foam/water running down your own windscreen from the roof turret, or getting sprayed onto it from the bumper turret, making visibility an issue even with windshield wipers going. And that's not including the other general chaos going on, while trying to do both truck movement and firefighting at the same time. Truthfully, with as many people as were running all over the place around that accident (which likely couldn't immediately be controlled, just from the general situation), I'm surprised more people weren't almost hit by any number of vehicles.

Frankly, I have thought the same thing. Pax running all over the place, some stumbling, some may fall, some standing near the plane trying to find other friends/family members, some disoriented, many of them carrying their carry-ons, shopping bags, totes, huge ass purses and what not.




Look at some of the crap they dragged down the chutes with them....good lord! I mean, what the hell is wrong with people???

Here's a woman who has unzipped her carry-on and is rummaging around through it. What could you possibly need at that moment? A candy bar?

It's like trying to corral a herd of drunken cats. They are in several areas all over the field.

Here's a woman with a huge carry-on.....she isn't even running. Meh, the plane just crashed and is on fire, it might explode, but at least I've got my clean underwear with me and I don't want to risk breaking a strap on my sandals.

Here, people are standing around, going in one direction, others going in the opposite direction, texting on their phones while still near the BURNING plane, yikes!!!

Another guy with a huge ass carry-on

Here, you can clearly see the pull up handles of two more carry-ons and a guy with a ton of camera equipment around his neck

This one guy is wearing the largest backpack I have ever seen in my life. Other pax are struggling at the bottom of the slide to pick up their shopping bags and misc. crap. One idiot is standing off to the left taking a photo with his cell phone.

Here are people just milling around and watching the aircraft burn and some strolling away like they're in Central Park on a Sunday outing.

People just never seem to amaze me in how completely stupid they are.

 

[MikeD]

More importantly too, take a look at those ARFF trucks from the back; they're one big giant blind spot. Same with the front when foam is going, though not as bad. Still in some of the pics, the first one, there appears to be some civilian just standing next to one of the trucks, unless he's walking towards the camera....

 

[A Life Aloft]

More importantly too, take a look at those ARFF trucks from the back; they're one big giant blind spot. Same with the front when foam is going, though not as bad. Still in some of the pics, the first one, there appears to be some civilian just standing next to one of the trucks, unless he's walking towards the camera....

And what is more amazing, is this is the plane mere minutes later. It was a helluva fire and hells bells smoke.

Here are some stills taken from the helmet cam of a Battallion Chief

Here's a better shot before the fire really took off. People just standing around, some casually sauntering away. Many of them congregating right by the wing! Just amazing.

 

[ChasenSFO]

By the time I drove up from SJC and saw the wreckage, it was just about all burned out and helicopter after helicopter was flying people out from the triage center at the 1R/28L intersection. I didn't even want to think about how many people had burned alive inside. I was very relived, but shocked, to find out that everyone made it out before the fire. Seeing it in person before any pics was...crazy to say the least. Still amazes me how well the plane held together.

 

[MikeD]

Still amazes me how well the plane held together.

....and people say Airbus products are flimsy pieces of junk.....

 

[ChasenSFO]

....and people say Airbus products are flimsy pieces of junk.....

I seriously wonder how an A330 would have handled that.

 

[A Life Aloft]

I seriously wonder how an A330 would have handled that.