United near miss at Houston

For the heavies yes. For some reason it seems like a lot of crews aren't expecting a clearance to roll when they get it. Saw a fair amount of cancelled clearances because of crews taking a lot of time to start their roll.

Not a big deal now. Get paid by the minute now so I really don't care.

I really don't know.

Generally, if I'm sitting on the runway for an extended period of time I'm not hyped up to take an immediate takeoff when cleared, I'm more of a "measure twice, cut once" type of pilot.

I know ATC is trying to create efficiencies, but it's not exactly like we're launching off an aircraft carrier with a catapult and we must take off now to intercept the MiG or the boat will be sunk.
 
LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Uh, you know the FFA writes them, correct?

If the last 200 feet of 13R was closed, it would put it in compliance and the "new rule" would not apply. The airport authority offered to do it - the FFA said no, as doing so would "circumvent the rule."

The operational impact was done after the rule came down. DFW got a slight delay in implementation until it was done, I don't know about anyone else. Houston is the only airport that got a waiver. Even though the converging runway thing has NOTHING to do with this incident, I'm still dreading what the "newest new rule" is going to be. After all, the opposite direction operation debacle came down after a botched flow change - not an opposite direction anything...
Good to know. I find it somewhat strange though since the FAA pushes so hard for air carriers to compile data so they can make decisions. Granted, this seems to take forever and a day but it would seem like they would want to do the same from your end.
 
It's because seemingly every other departure gets that phraseology when you're departing off the 15's. It's common to be given a turn across the opposite runway, so if you're on 15L, they'll give you a right turn past 180 degrees and then ask you keep it as tight as possible.

Normally things work just fine, but mistakes happen.

EDIT: Also, the other strange thing about Intergalactic is the tower's fascination with formation takeoff's. They'll launch guys off both of the 15's at once, and then turn them away from each other at 400'.

Ah, I didn't realize it was a typical instruction. So then the controller's biggest mistake was issuing it when another plane was in the damn way, haha. Oops. I wonder if the same controller works both of those runways or if it was a coordination issue between 2 controllers (plus a deficient visual scan of course). Still, glad he/they caught it.
 
If every near miss and controller screw up went in the news, nobody would ever fly again.

Paint wasn't traded, although there might have been several stains, learn from it and move on
 
Good to know. I find it somewhat strange though since the FAA pushes so hard for air carriers to compile data so they can make decisions. Granted, this seems to take forever and a day but it would seem like they would want to do the same from your end.

I just flew with a rather paranoid, burned out and frustrated (for realistic reasons) captain this week. He made the point that it's not what you do but rather what you say you are doing that now matters. Just because the Feds are telling groups to have data compiled and shared doesn't mean that they actually a) have data that can do this, b) are actually going to do this, c) look at the data if it is compiled and d) use that data to improve safety if they do actually compile it.

But they can say they are doing this.
 
I know ATC is trying to create efficiencies, but it's not exactly like we're launching off an aircraft carrier with a catapult and we must take off now to intercept the MiG or the boat will be sunk.

I want an Alert 5, scramble mentality out of you mister. Anything less, is subpar.


 
I really don't know.

Generally, if I'm sitting on the runway for an extended period of time I'm not hyped up to take an immediate takeoff when cleared, I'm more of a "measure twice, cut once" type of pilot.

I know ATC is trying to create efficiencies, but it's not exactly like we're launching off an aircraft carrier with a catapult and we must take off now to intercept the MiG or the boat will be sunk.
Yeah I know. Just figure if you are not ready you don't accept the takeoff clearance. Helps reduce workload for the controller working crossing runways.

Oh well. Like I said. Paid by the minute.
 
I figure if they say "line up and wait", I'll do it.

But if they wait five minutes and command "cleared for immediate takeoff", I'll do my best but high-bypass turbofans require spool up.

PT6A-67D's? oh yeah!

PW4000's? oooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *plane creeps forward*
 
I figure if they say "line up and wait", I'll do it.

But if they wait five minutes and command "cleared for immediate takeoff", I'll do my best but high-bypass turbofans require spool up.

PT6A-67D's? oh yeah!

PW4000's? oooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *plane creeps forward*

Agree. Even though ATC assumes that turbine planes are read for takeoff when they reach the runway (AIM 4-3-14b), it's reasonable to assume that if you aren't cleared to roll and go from there or as you're approaching, or even cleared to line up and wait; and are told to hold short, that an "immediate takeoff" can't be expected simply due to the above limitations you mention.
 
I just flew with a rather paranoid, burned out and frustrated (for realistic reasons) captain this week. He made the point that it's not what you do but rather what you say you are doing that now matters. Just because the Feds are telling groups to have data compiled and shared doesn't mean that they actually a) have data that can do this, b) are actually going to do this, c) look at the data if it is compiled and d) use that data to improve safety if they do actually compile it.

But they can say they are doing this.

The first time I accessed a MITRE compiled database I nearly cringed. It was absolutely alarming to discover how much data they have, and at the same time quite impressive to see how they put all that raw data into usable formats.

That being said, it would be optimal if when a change was in the pipeline - that data was used to show what effect the change would have on any given airport.

However, when something ends up on CNN what normally happens is a thrown together fix, immediately, so it can be shown that "someone fixed it." (my humble opinion). THEN once it becomes evident (usually immediately after implementation) that the resolution required more than an "effective immediately" memo written in five minutes - operational impact data is taken into consideration and a long, drawn out, time consuming battle starts to undo the "effective immediately" and put something into place that actually addresses the problem.

Case in point, opposite direction operations. There was a botched flow change (incomplete coordination was used for the window) which resulted in a headline event about a year and a half ago. Almost immediately, all these changes were made to ODO (opposite direction operations) which when implemented nationally, caused a lot of havoc. But, someone "fixed" it. So it was all good...

What followed was months upon months of changes (sometimes numerous per week) and interpretations upon interpretations which led to nothing but confusion, and more memos and interpretations. Hell, within the last few weeks yet another "clarification" to the rule came down. It's been a LONG time and battle of VFR/IFR, circling approaches, practice approaches, what a tower can do, what an approach control can do, etc etc. And yet, not one discussion was had about flow change procedures - which is what caused the actual problem, at one particular airport.

TL;DR - I agree with the captain in the regard that the focus is on someone saying they did something to fix it every time something hits the 24 hour news cycle. However, the data is there - they just do that after the fact, and then spend months (sometimes years) attempting to undo and redo. It's really, really frustrating actually...
 
Good to know. I find it somewhat strange though since the FAA pushes so hard for air carriers to compile data so they can make decisions. Granted, this seems to take forever and a day but it would seem like they would want to do the same from your end.

We are in the middle of a huge culture shift in the agency as of late. Actually, they are using a lot of the structure and modeling of the airlines programs. First was ATSAP, then ProStan, now Local Safety Counsels (among other things). We are moving towards a transparent system meant to identify and rectify issues as opposed to a punitive culture that focused on individuals. That is a HUGE change, and there are some growing pains. But, we're trying.

You breathe a Just Safety Culture. That's a very difficult thing to create...
 
I want an Alert 5, scramble mentality out of you mister. Anything less, is subpar.




I like the part where the camera person unsuccessfully fights the urge to film the airplane landing! Also the flight crews waving was fun, I waved back at the screen.
:)
 
Just Safety Culture and the FFA is like Military Intelligence. I would never trust FFA management, seems like too many forgot about 2006 and the White Book!
 
Just Safety Culture and the FFA is like Military Intelligence. I would never trust FFA management, seems like too many forgot about 2006 and the White Book!

I can't post a general reply on my phone so I'm quoting.

This thread hits home on several levels.

IWRs and just culture. I was a white book hire. I will play nice, but the lessons learned will forever stay with me. I can't forget that period and I can't not let new hires know what that time was like.

The opposite direction thing, which I know more about than I ever cared to know, I'm .00001% responsible for. That's an over beers story though and it's orders of magnitude more a butterfly flaps it wings in China than you'd think.
 
I can't post a general reply on my phone so I'm quoting.

This thread hits home on several levels.

IWRs and just culture. I was a white book hire. I will play nice, but the lessons learned will forever stay with me. I can't forget that period and I can't not let new hires know what that time was like.

The opposite direction thing, which I know more about than I ever cared to know, I'm .00001% responsible for. That's an over beers story though and it's orders of magnitude more a butterfly flaps it wings in China than you'd think.

Truth. Both you and Queeno. That's the problem. Attempting to work to create a just safety culture with punitive behaviors rolling around in the back of your head is nearly impossible. Every single time you take the smallest step forward there is a calculation for what the impact is going to be when the political climate changes and they're back to focusing all their time and attention on the thread count of a controller's pants (I wish I was kidding).

That audio that floated around a few years back from the management convention when they were briefing the IWR's...that was Hank telling the managers to fire air traffic controllers if they showed up to work in a shirt without a collar, was it not? Yeah, that culture doesn't change overnight...
 
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