Unions???

*raises hand*

*raises hand*

While I am not a "union man" and have much issue in many cases with what a union can do to a company. I am wholeheartedly for having unions in this industry. I have been on the recieving end of a non union 121 carrier's management going hog wild with "personal" interpretations of rules and firing based on the people dept., and a manager's interpretation of a rule. I was not in favor of the union drive at the time this happened, however, if could go back, they'd have my vote just for the protections that are affaorded against big management and the predatory practices of terminating pilots for minor infractions of company policies, no warnings, just..."you're out". Since they know there are 100 or more in line for your seat when they kick you to the curb. THe particular carier...OO.... has a very colorful history of firing pilots...more in a 3 year period than all the majors combine in the same period....
 
Are you aware that the pilots from both of those carriers are currently engaged in union drives?

SkyWest seems to have a union drive about every 4 to 5 years, always gets shot down. Management comes to the table and makes a bunch of empty promises to placate the pilot group and essentially woo them out of the vote.
 
Well, let me share my experience then:

I worked for a non-union (that is, no contract) scheduled carrier between 2008 and 2010. The Teamsters were on property at the time, but they were so very useless that their presence wasn't even considered by most pilots. There was no union protection, and no appreciable union membership. For all intents and purposes, it was a non-union airline "represented" (to use the term loosely) by IBT Local 747.

For the first year I worked there, management and the pilots had a good working relationship. If you needed management's help, they'd help you. For example, during initial training I was told that I'd be based in SJU, and that I should start looking for an apartment. I set up living arrangements with two other pilots in preparation for the move. About a week before training finished, however, the new system bid came out; I couldn't hold SJU. I don't recall where the bid had me going, but it would have required a complete change in plans, not to mention leaving the other two pilots high and dry. Without me even asking, the ACP called me and told me they'd create a reserve line for me down there; after all, they wanted to keep their word.

For the next year or so, I wrote airplanes up, refused airplanes, called in sick, called in fatigued, told dispatch to pound sand, you name it. I never once received a phone call challenging my decisions. The only phone call I ever received was after I had a door come open on approach, a situation that required the FAA to be notified. I never had to speak to the FAA personally; the company went to bat for me and stood in as a buffer between me and the feds. I didn't get so much as a letter about it. The ramper who closed the door was re-trained, and life went on.

In late 2008, there was a bit of a shakeup. IBT Local 747 collapsed (I'm pretty sure a couple of those guys got indicted), and by way of a bit of certification/decertification drama surrounding an in-house union, IBT Local 1224 came onto property. Mediated negotiations started with full force. I was generally in-favor of this, even though I was wary about the idea that a strong union would create a better working environment. As it turns out, my wariness was justified: Within 6 months, the company didn't resemble the same one I'd started at just a year and a half prior. It had, for all intents and purposes, become just like "every other airline." Management/labor relations were strained, the company wouldn't work with you if you needed help, and the pilot group's morale and productivity fell as a result. Trying to make the best of it, I volunteered on the Safety/Training Committee. I enjoyed my role and got to mentor some newer pilots in the process, but it didn't stop the downhill slide. When I left, I was convinced (and still am) that unionization destroyed the good-will working relationship between the pilots and management.

Now, fast forward just a bit (and guys, I have to be very careful here with what I say): I'm at a different company, but management/labor relations are not good. I don't think they've ever been what they were like in my first example. While the union does things every so often that I don't like, I think they're doing a good job overall, and I do feel they're making a positive difference. I'd go into more detail, but you understand if I can't/shouldn't. PM me if you care to hear more of the details.

My point in this entire thread is that you should make a personal decision before you hand off 2% of your paycheck; don't just toe the union line because they show up your first week and buy you pizza or sandwiches. While there are a few people in this thread who have had very bad non-union experiences, non-union companies do exist that treat their employees well.

If you're new to the industry or on the fence, please just think for yourself and don't necessarily listen to the schtick. That is all.
 
"Within 6 months, the company didn't resemble the same one I'd started at just a year and a half prior. It had, for all intents and purposes, become just like "every other airline." Management/labor relations were strained, the company wouldn't work with you if you needed help, and the pilot group's morale and productivity fell as a result."

You seem to blame this on the union. Perhaps management is equally to blame? I mean, if an airline can't adapt to a union on the property enforcing better QOL, perhaps the airline needed an attitude adjustment. I just find it hard to understand how if you didn't need a union on the property in the first place that things would change so much for the worse with a union. Union's tend to find themselves at places that the majority of folks feel them necessary.

"non-union companies do exist that treat their employees well" Amen to that. If you can find one that suits you, more power to ya. I wish companies treated folks well enough that unions were never invented. Not gonna see that in the airline biz much.

"If you're new to the industry or on the fence, please just think for yourself and don't necessarily listen to the schtick."

Fair enough. But if you are "new to the industry" are you really gonna have a clue? I might have scabbed during the CO strike in 87 cause I was "new to the industry" and didn't know better. That would have been a bad, bad, BAD, bad, thing that I would have regretted forever. I think folks new to the industry should have an open mind and listen to all sides. Personally, I think the arguments in favor greatly outweigh the arguments against. But YMMV. Anyone on the fence feel free to PM me. Laterz.....
 
You seem to blame this on the union. Perhaps management is equally to blame? I mean, if an airline can't adapt to a union on the property enforcing better QOL, perhaps the airline needed an attitude adjustment. I just find it hard to understand how if you didn't need a union on the property in the first place that things would change so much for the worse with a union. Union's tend to find themselves at places that the majority of folks feel them necessary.

"Hard to believe"? Perhaps. Is it the truth? Absolutely. That company was never the same after the union came on. Obviously management had their part in that; they pretty much threw up their hands and stopped treating us like individuals. QOL took a severe hit. Their response if we needed anything after that was "Don't ask us, talk to your union." Perhaps a current or former 9Ker can stick their head in and give their thoughts.

It's not like this everywhere, of course. Some places do much better with one than without (Colgan as an example). By the way, I get the impression that I'm being marked as an "anti-union" sort of guy based on some of the responses in this thread. Nothing could be further from the truth. All I ask is that people look through the propaganda on both sides and make a decision that's correct for the situation. This type of debate is healthy IMO, even if I get the label of "Public Enemy #1" for even daring to say "Hey, a union might not be the best thing in all situations." :)
 
This type of debate is healthy IMO, even if I get the label of "Public Enemy #1" for even daring to say "Hey, a union might not be the best thing in all situations." :)

And by debate you mean that YOU just get to ramble on and on and if anyone responds we are labeling you Public Enema whatever.

Eh, I'm not following. You had an experience, we've heard about it at length, different people wish to reply and take their own time illustrating their experience and challenging yours, I don't see anyone putting a scarlet letter on you drama boy.
[modhat]and this adds to the conversation how? It doesn't and is inflammatory, so knock it off. [/modhat]
 
And by debate you mean that YOU just get to ramble on and on and if anyone responds we are labeling you Public Enema whatever.

Eh, I'm not following. You had an experience, we've heard about it at length, different people wish to reply and take their own time illustrating their experience and challenging yours, I don't see anyone putting a scarlet letter on you drama boy.

I think I've been more than respectful of the experiences others have posted. So much constant venom from you, it's amazing.
 
You know - I'm management and am one of the evil bastards that have actually outsourced labor (and I'm getting a Waco partly because of the savings) - so use that as a backdrop of what I think about Unions. From my perspective, if there was ever a union that tried to unionize my company (although I'm not sure what it would be...the "National Federation of Women that like to Eat Chocolate and Discuss the Bachelor on Company Time" perhaps) I would go to the ends of the earth to block it including attack dogs or hot lead poured on them from above. That said, please allow my thoughts:

If I were a 121 pilot I'd be all about ALPA. Seriously. I would volunteer, I would support the PAC, etc. I am not about collectivism obviously, but I am intrinsically selfish and very focused on my own best interest. As a 121 pilot you need to be as well. I've caught a LOT of heat because in one post I've compared my employees to motor oil - a useful commodity that helps lubricate the gears of my enterprise that also smells bad if they get too hot. ATN ignored me over that thread and I believe Bumblebee is still mad at me for that comment. The greater point of that statement that was completely missed was that YOU (as 121 pilots or any other kind of "labor") need to understand that this is how WE (management) generally think. You are truly a number - an employee number attached to a salary number - that's generally it. Do I do nice things for my "motor oil"? Sure, but only after calculating the upside to this action - generating goodwill, etc.

You can talk yourself into the whole "Management treats us ok...we are a family...management cares" and other feel-good foolishness - and as a manager/owner I try really hard to create that perception - because it gives me leverage. If you are against unions and trade unionism - and there are lots of valid reasons to be - join anyway, if for no other reason than it is in your selfish best interest to do so. If you don't it is akin to bringing a knife to a gunfight. Where ATN gets lost in his messaging is that sometimes I think he feels that people should actually buy into the concept of the collectivist part of unionism - and collectivism is generally not part of the American psyche culturally. If you hate most things about a union...join it anyway because I guarantee there is someone across the table like me that is thinking about the numbers, my personal wealth and my use of the money I'm going to make from you in the form of a Waco. Just my thoughts on the subject - I take heat for my views, but wake up and smell the coffee (and don't get your panties in a wad like ATN) and understand that I'm serving as the perfect example of why you need to pull your head out of your ass and act in your own best interest - and I'm doing it on purpose.
 
Waco, thats proly the most insightful post anyone has contributed to any debate on unionism.

One question for ya. Do you believe that mentality is good for the us society as a whole?
 
Waco, thats proly the most insightful post anyone has contributed to any debate on unionism.

One question for ya. Do you believe that mentality is good for the us society as a whole?

Absolutely. Too many people get all wrapped up in ancillary issues that are far from what they need to be focused on. It actually works AGAINST the concept of a free-market. If people would simply focus a great percentage of their time on things that are in their best interest things would be better. People generally don't get bitter if they do, nor disallusioned. If you lose the rose-colored glasses, "look for the union label" idea and simply do things that are in your best interest things in general will be better. It is a matter of focus and keeping focus on things that are tangible and matter.
 
"Waco, thats proly the most insightful post anyone has contributed to any debate on unionism.

One question for ya. Do you believe that mentality is good for the us society as a whole?"

I think there are limits to an "it's all about me" attitude. This attitude is more understandable in a business environment but take it to everyday life and we don't get very far as a society. Thinking of what this day (July 4th) is all about, I'm grateful for the masses that came before me that didn't live life thinking "it's all about me".
 
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