Unions???

MikeD said:
Interesting. My question was out of curiousity of whether it was always as bad as you described it from day one, or whether things have deterioriated to that point over time.
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Joe and I left CJC about the same time. Why did *I* go there? I was a low-time wunderhire with no real clue about the airline's biz workings beyond the shiny, golden memories of my Dad's career. Like the kid with the faded postcard of the glorious place that was now shabby and deteriorated, I had no idea what I was getting into.

CJC was so bad that people were writing in interview gouges that current pilots were telling them to "run like hell, while you still can" during their interviews in Manassas. I dismissed comments like that as sour grapes or individuals with bad attitudes. I got a rude awakening. The level of general managerial incompetence on a day to day basis was staggering.

When I went there, I had no idea what I was getting into. Some people told me I'd work pretty hard, but hey, who cares? I was in the Army. Those civilians weenies didn't know what hard was. Right? How bad could it be. It's an AIRLINE, for CHRISSAKE! An FAA monitored, 121 regulated airline! It can't be that bad!

Riiiiiight. There's a reason why they made newhires in my class sign one year contracts. People were bailing so fast after the first 8 months to a year that they were making us all sign $16,000 contracts for the first year. Complete a year, or pay them back. Pro-rated, of course. When I walked after 7 months and basically dared them to sue me, they sent me two letters. One saying I owed, and another specifying the amount for my training in the S-340B. I've never even rode the jumpseat in a Saab. They withheld my final paycheck, too, which I think is illegal. I got it approximately a year later.

They were non-union when I worked there, and pilots believing that they had no rights and no recourse were unable to stand up for what was legal, let alone right. Many people, like myself, had no real understanding of what they were getting into and got sucked in. I got out as fast as I could once I saw how it really was. The way CJC was run without union input was absolutely shocking.

I understand they've come a long way since then. Good for them- the change was made possible because they unionized and company officials were finally being held liable for their actions.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Joe and I left CJC about the same time. Why did *I* go there? I was a low-time wunderhire with no real clue about the airline's biz workings beyond the shiny, golden memories of my Dad's career. Like the kid with the faded postcard of the glorious place that was now shabby and deteriorated, I had no idea what I was getting into.

CJC was so bad that people were writing in interview gouges that current pilots were telling them to "run like hell, while you still can" during their interviews in Manassas. I dismissed comments like that as sour grapes or individuals with bad attitudes. I got a rude awakening. The level of general managerial incompetence on a day to day basis was staggering.

When I went there, I had no idea what I was getting into. Some people told me I'd work pretty hard, but hey, who cares? I was in the Army. Those civilians weenies didn't know what hard was. Right? How bad could it be. It's an AIRLINE, for CHRISSAKE! An FAA monitored, 121 regulated airline! It can't be that bad!

Riiiiiight. There's a reason why they made newhires in my class sign one year contracts. People were bailing so fast after the first 8 months to a year that they were making us all sign $16,000 contracts for the first year. Complete a year, or pay them back. Pro-rated, of course. When I walked after 7 months and basically dared them to sue me, they sent me two letters. One saying I owed, and another specifying the amount for my training in the S-340B. I've never even rode the jumpseat in a Saab. They withheld my final paycheck, too, which I think is illegal. I got it approximately a year later.

They were non-union when I worked there, and pilots believing that they had no rights and no recourse were unable to stand up for what was legal, let alone right. Many people, like myself, had no real understanding of what they were getting into and got sucked in. I got out as fast as I could once I saw how it really was. The way CJC was run without union input was absolutely shocking.

I understand they've come a long way since then. Good for them- the change was made possible because they unionized and company officials were finally being held liable for their actions.
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I enjoyed reading a post of yours one time when you said, if I remember correctly, "Colgan makes Eagle look like NASA."

Hilarious.

I've heard plenty of stories from there as well...people sleeping in cold hangars overnight between repo flights, three or four deadheads in a 16 hour day to fly one 30 minute let, etc. Crazy.
 
The last couple posts remind me of a guy who buys a Kia, then gets pissed when it blows its motor 2 days out of the warranty period.
 
wheelsup said:
The last couple posts remind me of a guy who buys a Kia, then gets pissed when it blows its motor 2 days out of the warranty period.
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So we've gone from you believing this stuff doesn't happen to telling people that they had it coming?

Well done, sir.
 
MikeD said:
Interesting. My question was out of curiousity of whether it was always as bad as you described it from day one, or whether things have deterioriated to that point over time.
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Day one was fine. Double occupancy rooms $50 a day to work there until line qual. I appreciated the 6 day a week course followed by a 7th day study session that was "completely voluntary" where we covered new material. Of course that was 1.5 - 2 weeks in. My IOE instructor read the newspaper every flight, and glanced down every once in a while to say, "hey don't do that." that was a month in? Bought two months in by Pinnacle and nothing happened to my QOL until after we voted no to a union. Mostly flew with checkairmen for first few months, then went senior enough to hold a good line, fly with the same guy for a month but I normally added anther 50 credits worth of work a month. I think my lowest credit month after I got a little higher seniority was 125, but I was working for it. 119.5 hr's a month flying and 140-155 credits was not uncommon (4-7 days off a month). Work work work, advantage to that was that I was able to fly with a lot of captains. They all gave me their perspective of Colgan so I learned what the hell I got into slowly. The big sonar pings were watching my co-workers and friend co-workers being destroyed by screw scheduling, the part 91 legs after your full 121 day which meant you flew until you crashed (no 121 rest/duty until the NEXT 121 leg you flew), the captains telling you flat out that the Colgan dance didn't happen at real airlines. Then telling me, oh yes, there are REAL airlines that are regionals.

I learned as I went, unlike the most holy Wheelsup who has it all figured out. Not something I intend to repeat.
 
dasleben said:
Colgan as well?

Had that happen at Cape Air once. Told them to pound sand. Never heard a thing about it. :)
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Yes.....prior to the hard work of a bunch of a bunch of individuals (and the votes of many) when we brought ALPA onto the property. Things are WAAAAY different over here. There is only ONE reason: ALPA!

I worked too hard to bring a union here to ever go to another non-union shop. No way, no how! If you don't have representation or a CBA, do don't have anything!


MHO, of course. :)
 
Cruise said:
I worked too hard to bring a union here to ever go to another non-union shop. No way, no how! If you don't have representation or a CBA, do don't have anything!
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I can understand that. That said, not all non-union carriers are made alike. I guarantee JetBlue and SkyWest aren't like Colgan.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Are you aware that the pilots from both of those carriers are currently engaged in union drives?
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Good for them. I'm also aware that both pilot groups have declined unionization in the past. If they feel that's is a positive move for them at this point in time, more power to 'em.
 
dasleben said:
I can understand that. That said, not all non-union carriers are made alike. I guarantee JetBlue and SkyWest aren't like Colgan.
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Of course not, both Skywest and Jetblue can change all benefits, for example replacing a health insurance plan with some sort of health savings account, at any time without notice. That can't happen at Colgan anymore. That is one way they are different.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
Of course not, both Skywest and Jetblue can change all benefits, for example Skywest replaced their health insurance plan with some sort of health savings account without notice. That can't happen at Colgan anymore. That is one way they are different.
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Fix it for you.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I learned as I went, unlike the most holy Wheelsup who has it all figured out. Not something I intend to repeat.
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No I just learned all that before I made the decision on where to go. I also had 2000 hours, most people going to Colgan probably had about 10%-20% of that.

ETA Colgan has a bad corporate culture, a union doesn't fix that. TSA has a bad corporate culture. So does Mesa. Without a union would it be worse? Sure I bet it would. But jtrain seems to insist that no union = unsafe culture when you know as well as I that has no bearing on whether a company is safe or not. That was my point.
 
darrenf said:
Wait a minute, who wouldn't get pissed if their car blew a motor?
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Ok, maybe "surprised" would have been a better word.

That being said, just looking at new car prices, I'd also be pissed! Kia's are expensive these days! What happened to the $11,000 Kias of 3-5 years ago???
 
wheelsup said:
Ok, maybe "surprised" would have been a better word.

That being said, just looking at new car prices, I'd also be pissed! Kia's are expensive these days! What happened to the $11,000 Kias of 3-5 years ago???
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Might have something to do with exchange rates. :). Also, Kias are right now average or above average in reliability. I just heard an article the other day that they plan on being in the top 3 in quality within 3 years. Never thought I would ever use that info in a conversation.

Aren't you happy you used them as an example? ;)
 
Nick said:
I enjoyed reading a post of yours one time when you said, if I remember correctly, "Colgan makes Eagle look like NASA."

Hilarious.

I've heard plenty of stories from there as well...people sleeping in cold hangars overnight between repo flights, three or four deadheads in a 16 hour day to fly one 30 minute let, etc. Crazy.
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They once had a ferry flight going from Maine to Hyannis divert to Albany to PICK ME UP because they couldn't figure out any other plan to get me to Hyannis.

Don't even get me started on the mileage I racked up in rental cars because they'd 'forget' to list us on deadheads.
 
Firebird2XC said:
They once had a ferry flight going from Maine to Hyannis divert to Albany to PICK ME UP because they couldn't figure out any other plan to get me to Hyannis.

Don't even get me started on the mileage I racked up in rental cars because they'd 'forget' to list us on deadheads.
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That happens at (slightly) more reputable places as well. I once get picked up in Clarksburg, WV by a PIT-CLT revenue flight because Air Midwest had canceled for the rest of the day. Also, we aren't allowed (normally) to use rental cars to get around because of insurance liability. Instead they put us in cabs (although crewweb always shows it as a limo) to get around when we are going places that the system doesn't fly.
 
dasleben said:
...yeah.

Please raise your hand if you've flown the line for at least one non-union carrier, and can actually tell people what it's like.

*raises hand*

There is an unnecessary amount of hyperbole in this thread.
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*raises hand*
 
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