Unions???

[WacoFan]

And your post was? A little of your own medicine might give you some perspective. You aren't coming across well here, my friend. Tone it down a notch.

You should probably ignore him. Be careful criticizing too much until you hit the ignore button on the person...you wouldn't want them to actually be able to address the criticism.

As usual, someone please quote this so Senor Weaksauce can see my sage advice.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The status quo of the RLA under Bush is the new normal for any Republican president, the tea party won't have it any other way. So that is a big if: when administered properly.

True, but I'm not sure of another system that would work better. The NLRA is a complete mess, and wouldn't work for us at all.

 

[dasleben]

You should probably ignore him. Be careful criticizing too much until you hit the ignore button on the person...you wouldn't want them to actually be able to address the criticism.

As usual, someone please quote this so Senor Weaksauce can see my sage advice.

It's not worth it. Debating on JC is fine as long as you agree with everyone else.

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

I just tore through about three pages of this thread. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on this stuff but a topic for discussion that I've been wondering as of late is how does everyone feel about one super-union like ALPA? I understand the whats, and the whys of a union, one union one pilot voice and all that jazz. But it seems like the priorities of a lot of smaller carriers get overlooked because the union is too busy working with the larger major and legacy carriers. Also I was talked to my airline buddy yesterday and he said that the top management at ALPA is pulling in something like 600K annually with company cars and the whole nine yards off 1.5% they take from the pilot salary, some of who make 25K/yr...

Like I said I'm not against the union as a concept, but would it be any better if each carrier had they're own pilot union vs. one huge monster?

By the way whats the ticker for ALPA on the NYSE so I can buy shares in it? sarcasm

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Your friend is wrong. The compensation for ALPA National is public, you can see it in the members area at alpa.org, but keep in mind some of them receive housing in DC which is included and doesn't represent a payday since they have to be there and is kind of expensive, but worth it when you consider they can't influence many politicians from Atlanta or wherever their home is.

Their base salary is based on their income at their respective carriers, I believe. Its been a while since I read the bylaws, but most of them are widebody captains.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk

 

[jynxyjoe]

I simply asked you guys to raise your hand if you've worked for a non-union carrier. Nobody in the class did.

Non union 121 airline, non union charter (135) group, non union CFI job (yes they have those). Teach us more Obi-Wan.

*waves hand*

Non pilot, but certainly aviation, Also worked as a non union contractor for a union shop many times. Worked as a contractor Canada, Israel, England, with differing flavors of government recognized universal unions. In Canada for instance it took 3 guys to "supervise" me and my co-worker because we blew through their government regulated rest regs for weeks on end.

 

[Vector4Food]

My favourite...

People bitching about unions on their weekend off...

People bitching about unions after buying something with overtime they earned.

Those who are anti-union probably won't even figure out what I'm talking about.

 

[jynxyjoe]

I agree they are doing a great job, I mean look at the regoinal pay scales. Well done, team!

Hey man, at least the scales and QOL are going up. Would have gone down without CBA's negotiated by a union (I understand that's hard to prove but I would assume everyone could agree with simple economics of less jobs and lots of pilots. While the payscales at the non-union airlines may rise to match other union carriers (Skywest comes to mind) they certainly aren't acting in a vacuum for the factual comparison needed)

 

[dasleben]

Non union 121 airline, non union charter (135) group, non union CFI job (yes they have those). Teach us more Obi-Wan.

Teach you what? :dunno:

Lots of misinformation in this thread about non-union companies, particularly non-union non-sked. Since you also have a similar background, can you confirm what these guys are saying? I personally cannot.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Teach you what? :dunno:

Lots of misinformation in this thread about non-union companies, particularly non-union non-sked. Since you also have a similar background, can you confirm what these guys are saying? I personally cannot.

My God.

I once got to switch out the puss filled rag of a guy with Shingles AND broncitus (spelling?) because he was afraid to call in. He finally did call in and they pulled his whole month schedule, and at that hellhole, that meant no checky.

One guy in my pad got sick as a dog, was told he had to explain himself to the chief pilot why he was too sick to fly.

Ask anyone of the ex-ALB guys about the Saab repo flight with a bad oil gauge and the end of that guys career.

The guy who got me into the said 121 joint was ordered to fly a broke plane from BUF to ALB with no wing ice in winter, through two snow storms, had to come go talk to the CP and his cronies on his day off.

Honestly man, it just keeps going. Pressured to fly sick, broke, blah blah blah. Changing check in times to get that under 16 hour. Of course, if the current crop of said airline pilots will follow their form, a few will come on and say I'm nuts and I don't know what I'm talking about never mind I worked there.

Anyway, there you go, got more but why tell you stuff you're not going to listen to anyway right?

 

[dasleben]

My God.

I once got to switch out the puss filled rag of a guy with Shingles AND broncitus (spelling?) because he was afraid to call in. He finally did call in and they pulled his whole month schedule, and at that hellhole, that meant no checky.

One guy in my pad got sick as a dog, was told he had to explain himself to the chief pilot why he was too sick to fly.

Ask anyone of the ex-ALB guys about the Saab repo flight with a bad oil gauge and the end of that guys career.

The guy who got me into the said 121 joint was ordered to fly a broke plane from BUF to ALB with no wing ice in winter, through two snow storms, had to come go talk to the CP and his cronies on his day off.

Honestly man, it just keeps going. Pressured to fly sick, broke, blah blah blah. Changing check in times to get that under 16 hour. Of course, if the current crop of said airline pilots will follow their form, a few will come on and say I'm nuts and I don't know what I'm talking about never mind I worked there.

Anyway, there you go, got more but why tell you stuff you're not going to listen to anyway right?

Fair enough. I've personally never seen it that bad, so I stand corrected. Definitely a company that could benefit from a union (and as I recall, they're ALPA now?).

I thought we were doing fine here until your last sentence, by the way. No need to get snippy.

 

[pullup]

T

Hey man, at least the scales and QOL are going up. Would have gone down without CBA's negotiated by a union (I understand that's hard to prove but I would assume everyone could agree with simple economics of less jobs and lots of pilots. While the payscales at the non-union airlines may rise to match other union carriers (Skywest comes to mind) they certainly aren't acting in a vacuum for the factual comparison needed)

True, but I mean it's 2011...can't they negotiate something at least closer to what a garbage man makes? Around here it's not a bad gig.

 

[pullup]

My God.

I once got to switch out the puss filled rag of a guy with Shingles AND broncitus (spelling?) because he was afraid to call in. He finally did call in and they pulled his whole month schedule, and at that hellhole, that meant no checky.

One guy in my pad got sick as a dog, was told he had to explain himself to the chief pilot why he was too sick to fly.

That's when you self-union yourself. Say nuh-uh, this ain't happening. Go find yourself a new puppy mill graduate. There comes a time when your health and self worth trump your job.

 

[wheelsup]

Fair enough. I've personally never seen it that bad, so I stand corrected. Definitely a company that could benefit from a union (and as I recall, they're ALPA now?).

I thought we were doing fine here until your last sentence, by the way. No need to get snippy.

You haven't seen it that bad because you're not a dumbbutt who did their research and realized there is a reason why a 121 company has to hire street captains. I mean seriously, I knew back in 2005 that airline was a dirtbag. People went there under their own free will, and then complain about it. I just don't get it.

 

[dasleben]

You haven't seen it that bad because you're not a dumbbutt who did their research and realized there is a reason why a 121 company has to hire street captains. I mean seriously, I knew back in 2005 that airline was a dirtbag. People went there under their own free will, and then complain about it. I just don't get it.

I hear ya.

If I can say one thing to people on the fence or just entering the industry: Do yourself a favor and think for yourself when it comes to this decision. Unions can be beneficial at certain companies, but detrimental at others. There's not a one size fits all answer. It's perfectly acceptable to go to a company that's non-union; while there are horror stories, not all companies are made alike. There is a lot of union "schtick" out there (particularly during the first week of groundschool) designed to get you to join up and hand over your 2%; make sure that they adequately represent your interests before you do so.

 

[MikeD]

My God.

I once got to switch out the puss filled rag of a guy with Shingles AND broncitus (spelling?) because he was afraid to call in. He finally did call in and they pulled his whole month schedule, and at that hellhole, that meant no checky.

One guy in my pad got sick as a dog, was told he had to explain himself to the chief pilot why he was too sick to fly.

Ask anyone of the ex-ALB guys about the Saab repo flight with a bad oil gauge and the end of that guys career.

The guy who got me into the said 121 joint was ordered to fly a broke plane from BUF to ALB with no wing ice in winter, through two snow storms, had to come go talk to the CP and his cronies on his day off.

Honestly man, it just keeps going. Pressured to fly sick, broke, blah blah blah. Changing check in times to get that under 16 hour. Of course, if the current crop of said airline pilots will follow their form, a few will come on and say I'm nuts and I don't know what I'm talking about never mind I worked there.

Anyway, there you go, got more but why tell you stuff you're not going to listen to anyway right?

Ok, Ive gotta know,

why would you (or anyone) work for a place like that? Beyond all you wrote, you're risking your certificate daily, likely getting paid crap, and probably risking your life.....and for what? To live and work in a place like that? Is it that worth it? Is there some weird bonus package you're getting that is a secret?

Talking about feeling like you're walking on thin ice on a daily basis.......it almost seems like some sort of weird "battered wife" syndrome. Getting beaten daily, but never getting the hell out.

 

[Cruise]

...yeah.

Please raise your hand if you've flown the line for at least one non-union carrier, and can actually tell people what it's like.

*raises hand*

There is an unnecessary amount of hyperbole in this thread.

*raising hand here as well*......and I might add, worked like hell to successfully change it (thank you, ALPA!!!). JTrains example is spot on.....I've seen it first hand account!!!

We need to ferry this plane to XYZ tonight when you get to ABC. It's ok that you've already been on duty for 15+ hrs since the ferry flight is Part 91.

DON'T, FOR ONE SECOND, THINK THIS CRAP DOESN'T HAPPEN AT NON-UNION SHOPS!!!

 

[jynxyjoe]

Ok, Ive gotta know,

why would you (or anyone) work for a place like that? Beyond all you wrote, you're risking your certificate daily, likely getting paid crap, and probably risking your life.....and for what? To live and work in a place like that? Is it that worth it? Is there some weird bonus package you're getting that is a secret?

Talking about feeling like you're walking on thin ice on a daily basis.......it almost seems like some sort of weird "battered wife" syndrome. Getting beaten daily, but never getting the hell out.

I went to a place like that because it was non union and my friend went there. It was worth it at the time because I was going to upgrade and goto United and make money so I could ball. Then I left fantasy land with it's unicorns about 6 months in, stuck around to see if we'd get a union, then when that was a firm no I left. I came from a 135 in western Mass that ran their operation about the same, so it wasn't a big change for me.

The worst thing the company ever did for themselves was let the street captains in. Having a guy from Eagle/Whiskey/Navy/etc. tell you, "normally I wouldn't do this, but because this is Colgan." "Don't do this crap when you goto Southwest someday." "Don't ever do what I just did, that's not how an airline runs." "There's some things even I won't do jynxy, sorry." It was eye opening.

I was there for one year and ten days, left for Mesaba. At the time I thought I should finish my training contract, now years later, I know I should have left about 3 months in. It was a silly young mistake, but I don't even know if research would have helped me. I was so stuck on the right wing, unions are bad I'll make it myself, mentality. I'm over that kind of thinking, I've moved forward.

Also, that mindset I left does work. Ask some of the FO's at Southernjets International who stayed for years at Colgan until they left. Then they call me and say, "Holy CRAP I can't believe how bad Colgan was!" There's at least two 1900 guys at Southwest who did the same thing. People make choices, sometimes it works, sometimes 3 guys imitate them, sometimes a whole airline forms around that staffing plan.

 

[dasleben]

*raising hand here as well*......and I might add, worked like hell to successfully change it (thank you, ALPA!!!). JTrains example is spot on.....I've seen it first hand account!!!

We need to ferry this plane to XYZ tonight when you get to ABC. It's ok that you've already been on duty for 15+ hrs since the ferry flight is Part 91.

DON'T, FOR ONE SECOND, THINK THIS CRAP DOESN'T HAPPEN AT NON-UNION SHOPS!!!

Colgan as well?

Had that happen at Cape Air once. Told them to pound sand. Never heard a thing about it.

 

[MikeD]

I went to a place like that because it was non union and my friend went there. It was worth it at the time because I was going to upgrade and goto United and make money so I could ball. Then I left fantasy land with it's unicorns about 6 months in, stuck around to see if we'd get a union, then when that was a firm no I left. I came from a 135 in western Mass that ran their operation about the same, so it wasn't a big change for me.

The worst thing the company ever did for themselves was let the street captains in. Having a guy from Eagle/Whiskey/Navy/etc. tell you, "normally I wouldn't do this, but because this is Colgan." "Don't do this crap when you goto Southwest someday." "Don't ever do what I just did, that's not how an airline runs." "There's some things even I won't do jynxy, sorry." It was eye opening.

I was there for one year and ten days, left for Mesaba. At the time I thought I should finish my training contract, now years later, I know I should have left about 3 months in. It was a silly young mistake, but I don't even know if research would have helped me. I was so stuck on the right wing, unions are bad I'll make it myself, mentality. I'm over that kind of thinking, I've moved forward.

Also, that mindset I left does work. Ask some of the FO's at Southernjets International who stayed for years at Colgan until they left. Then they call me and say, "Holy CRAP I can't believe how bad Colgan was!" There's at least two 1900 guys at Southwest who did the same thing. People make choices, sometimes it works, sometimes 3 guys imitate them, sometimes a whole airline forms around that staffing plan.

Interesting. My question was out of curiousity of whether it was always as bad as you described it from day one, or whether things have deterioriated to that point over time.