Union-Specific Sub-Forum??

[tonyw]

No. It needs to be right there in front of everyone. It's part of the gig, just like crappy food and layovers in the middle of nowhere on Christmas Eve.

People who are considering entering the field need to know about it.

 

[mjg407]

Well here's the deal.

Without requiring some sort of (easily defeatable) litmus test, it's very difficult to create and "industry only" forum. I really don't want to get into the business of asking folks for credentials and crosschecking them with the FAA because that would require a lot of manpower which we really don't have.

I think the best way is to participate.

Let me speak very frankly. This might be a little raw because I'm a little loopy from screwing up my sleep cycle on this trip.

Some people absolutely bitch to no end about the website. However, when I click "show all posts by...", most of their posts have been negative, sarcastic and such, but then they write me an email or a PM about "Your website is negative, erase my posts, I'm gone forever!!!!!". Well, a whole freaking lot of their posts were negative! What have THEY said, or offered, positive? Hey man, I'm just the highway overpass and y'all are painting the graffiti. Sorry, I don't hate my job, I've had a "renewal" of sorts when I started flying international. I don't have any more or less opportunity than anyone else has on the website so if you're "in it to win it", improve your position. No one's going to hand you career satisfaction on a silver platter.

Conversely, inherently negative people bitch about the koombayah environment that the positive people are living in. Then they say insipid #### like "Oh, it's just a bunch of kids that don't want to hear the TROOF about the profession, I'm gone!!!111oneone". The truth according to who?!

And inverse of the converse, there are those that bitch about the negativity of the website and scream "inner circle! inner circle! if I'm not bitter about the profession, my input isn't welcome!"

So I ask, not directed at you Brian (fo sho!) or anyone in particular, but just a shot in the dark, what have YOU done to improve things? What insight are you providing? Remember, I'm just the highway overpass and you guys are the taggers with the spray paint. You all know what I'm trying to accomplish here and how many of you are helping foster that? Or how many just log on to bitch about things that are absolutely out of our control? How many volunteer? How many show up to meet 'n greets? Hell, how many of you talk #### about the website, exclaim how they're running off to otheraviationwebsite.com, only to come back, meld back in, rinse and repeat the cycle?

And on the other side, kool aid will give you a hangover nastier than mixing cheap beer with scotch chasers.

But what do we do?

"Dough, I want the new posts button to only show new posts that ***I*** care about!"

"Dough, what's up with the people that aren't like me that are on the forum?"

"Dough, I'm tired of the political threads in the lavatory (dude, it's not required reading!!! HellooOooOOo?!?)"

"Dough, I want that user on my ignore list, how do I do that?" quickly followed by "That thread don't make no sense!"

Come on folks, we're pilots. We're on the cool side of the locking cockpit door. Take personal responsibility. Foster the environment which you want to work in.

I ain't yo daddy.

If you're bitching, you're failing.

well said Doug. I think folks here don't realize how level headed the mods are. I've been elsewhere and seen mods not quite as nice or forgiving. And just like the guys that pop in and want to know about a military career, the mods will move that thread to the military section.

I would also add that the union discussions should be in their own forum. A jetcareer does not necessarily mean that you will be part of the union. There are a lot of careers in aviation, that involve jets, that may never have a union.

Great job on the website Doug.

 

[Seggy]

There are a lot of careers in aviation, that involve jets, that may never have a union.

Understandable but shouldn't I be aware of what is going on in the industry as a whole?

 

[Seggy]

All right time for me to go off on a little rant here. I really don't care at this point in time, I am a tad wasted so please bear with me.

If you don't like or are afraid of union talk, tough cookies. It is and will be out there.

If you don't like talk by guys like myself, PCL or Surreal, well add me/them to your ignore list.

We have a lot to owe to ALPA in regards to safety and advancement of this industry. If you guys are 'bored' of the union talk, well understand that without someone pushing for enhanced safety measures and a desire to raise the bar, our jobs would be a lot more dangerous than they are today.

To separate this into a subforum is ludicrous.

 

[Nick]

We have a lot to owe to ALPA in regards to safety and advancement of this industry.

http://www.clearedtodream.org/AirlineAircraft/tabid/508/Default.aspx

Those four tabs give some examples to anyone who doubts the notion.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

If you don't like talk by guys like myself, PCL or Surreal, well add me/them to your ignore list.

Done.

 

[Airdale]

Really??

For Example (and I'm not accusing you of anything)

Johnny private pilot joins JC and decides to test the waters with a new post.

"How can I become an airline pilot"

9 times out of 10 here are the responses verbatim.....

"use the search function" (has nothing to do about unions, but a very annoying response"

"This is a crappy industry, you should think of a backup plan" (even though I'm an airline pilot and was in your shoes less than 6 months ago.)

"Make sure and work for an ALPA represented airline. (even though I don't)

"don't be that tool that carries a backpack or listens to an Ipod" (who cares)

"SJS is what brings the this industry down" (you had it at one point, everyone does)

"You know how much regional FO's make right?" (I do because i'm one myself and management told me before I signed the dotted line.)

"seniority is everything" (no its not, QOL is)

"you only have 250 hours dude! you have no business flying a jet" (even though I got a job with 300 hours)

"I work for the regionals so I can make it better for the people to follow" (hahaha...this is my favorite one.....BS!)


I just realized that most of my complaints have nothing to do with unions at all. Just a Makers on Ice rant.

We should have a sub-forum for people who post off topic. That would be a great idea.

I personally think its a good idea. I come to this section to learn things on how to improve my flying through tips and tricks from people all through the industry. I dont come here to be told to bow down to this one union, and bash others.

So which Union bully has a gun to your head, forcing your eyeballs open across the message board? Don't like the Union talk, than don't read. If you really think you are being told to "bow down" to a Union, than WOW, you're in for a real treat when you're company tells you to "bow down" with yer "pants down". Give us a break....the union discussions here should be read by any aspiring Airline pilot. If you don't like unions, this is the wrong career!

All right time for me to go off on a little rant here. I really don't care at this point in time, I am a tad wasted so please bear with me.

If you don't like or are afraid of union talk, tough cookies. It is and will be out there.

If you don't like talk by guys like myself, PCL or Surreal, well add me/them to your ignore list.

We have a lot to owe to ALPA in regards to safety and advancement of this industry. If you guys are 'bored' of the union talk, well understand that without someone pushing for enhanced safety measures and a desire to raise the bar, our jobs would be a lot more dangerous than they are today.

To separate this into a subforum is ludicrous.

Coudn't agree more. This website is not anywhere close to the BS you see on most of the other aviation message boards.

What we have here are people who are "tired" of reading all the Union talk on the website and want to change the world to suite their needs. Well I hate listening to two idiots get into a political debate on Tv...thats why I just change the channel.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

All right time for me to go off on a little rant here. I really don't care at this point in time, I am a tad wasted so please bear with me.

If you don't like or are afraid of union talk, tough cookies. It is and will be out there.

If you don't like talk by guys like myself, PCL or Surreal, well add me/them to your ignore list.

We have a lot to owe to ALPA in regards to safety and advancement of this industry. If you guys are 'bored' of the union talk, well understand that without someone pushing for enhanced safety measures and a desire to raise the bar, our jobs would be a lot more dangerous than they are today.

To separate this into a subforum is ludicrous.

:yeahthat: Seggy, you da man!

Done.

Ignore lists? Ridiculous. I can understand it on FI where the site is filled with constant flamebait, but it is completely unnecessary here. It's nothing short of an adult version of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "I can't year you, nanny, nanny, boo boo!" Grow up.

 

[skydog]

This website was started operated with the idea of being a resource for people who wish to educate themselves about an aviation career. The key words there are "educate themselves." It's not up to us to "educate" the new person. That makes us sound like the secret police ("Come with me for re-education"). It's up to us provide the information and let the newbie take what he wants from it. To that end, perhaps some "Perspectives" article(s) would be a better tool for discussing unions than an actual forum.

The thing with unions is that there is really nothing to discuss. There's no point in discussing whether or not to; that's a personal decision. And discussion of actual union business on a public forum is probably not the best idea.

The other thing is that there is a certain "go-union-rah-rah-rah" crowd on here that cannot stand the idea that someone else disagrees with them on the subject. These people tend to publicly and privately pillory anyone who has a differing opinion about the value of unions. That kind of behavior does not add anything of value to an honest and open discussion, and it defeats the main purpose of this site: education.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

skydog, it seems that you only like the kind of education that you personally agree with. You provide your idea of education, and Seggy, Surreal, Airdale, myself, etc.... will provide our idea of education. I don't try to get your pro-management posts relegated to a new "Kool-aid Drinkers" sub-forum. Why do you feel the need to censor those that you don't agree with? Seems rather desperate to me.

 

[BobDDuck]

Treo post... long version later.

There would be very little content in a union only forum. Unions don't operate in a vaccume and hence you prett much need 'normal' airline stuff to provide union action.

 

[Cruise]

100% against separating to a sub-forum. Unions are intertwined w/ the industry. This is exactly what's wrong w/ the US these days. People aren't able to apply common sense to anything. Look, if you don't like the topic, or the direction, a thread is taking......don't read it. Simple as that.

Why must someone else do your work for you. Grow up and deal w/ it people! Like Seggy said, we're in the middle of another union drive. We're both on the OC and certainly appreciate JC's help in dissemination of information regarding ALPA, IBT, other pilot experiences w/ said unions, etc.....

 

[ASpilot2be]

So which Union bully has a gun to your head, forcing your eyeballs open across the message board? Don't like the Union talk, than don't read. If you really think you are being told to "bow down" to a Union, than WOW, you're in for a real treat when you're company tells you to "bow down" with yer "pants down". Give us a break....the union discussions here should be read by any aspiring Airline pilot. If you don't like unions, this is the wrong career!

OK, maybe I was abit extreme. I just dont like how threads get completely derailed into union talk. There are threads where it fits perfectly,but it doesnt belong in every thread.(I know, there isnt union talk in every thread)

At my point in training I am not interested in knowing every detail about unions. I already know that unions=good. They have already saved my dad and his fellow employees at his job.

Maybe I should ignore this section and start residing in the Techical Talk section. That interests me far more.

 

[skydog]

skydog, it seems that you only like the kind of education that you personally agree with. You provide your idea of education, and Seggy, Surreal, Airdale, myself, etc.... will provide our idea of education. I don't try to get your pro-management posts relegated to a new "Kool-aid Drinkers" sub-forum. Why do you feel the need to censor those that you don't agree with? Seems rather desperate to me.

I am not trying to censor you, nor could I even if I wanted to. I was merely posting my opinion in response to the original poster. But thanks for making my point for me. I stated a view about unions that you disagree with, and here you come ready to knock me down for it.

This is exactly why I think there shouldn't be a union sub-forum.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

But thanks for making my point for me. I stated a view about unions that you disagree with, and here you come ready to knock me down for it.

Knock you down? I did no such thing. You provided your opinion, I provided mine. That's called debate. Knocking you down would be trying to shoe-horn you into your own sub-forum. You know, like you're trying to do with me and other union supporters.

 

[Airdale]

OK, maybe I was abit extreme. I just dont like how threads get completely derailed into union talk. There are threads where it fits perfectly,but it doesnt belong in every thread.(I know, there isnt union talk in every thread)

At my point in training I am not interested in knowing every detail about unions. I already know that unions=good. They have already saved my dad and his fellow employees at his job.

Maybe I should ignore this section and start residing in the Techical Talk section. That interests me far more.

Thats cool dude!! I completely understand your position, I felt the same way when I was in your shoes. I wasn't too interested in some of the union talk because it simply didn't apply. I would read some threads and if it went south or in a direction I couldn't or didn't want to follow, I just moved on to another thread!

100% against separating to a sub-forum. Unions are intertwined w/ the industry. This is exactly what's wrong w/ the US these days. People aren't able to apply common sense to anything. Look, if you don't like the topic, or the direction, a thread is taking......don't read it. Simple as that.

Well said Cruise, I agree completely.

Why is it that people who don't like the view try to change it? Its just a simple fact that Union discussions go hand in hand with Airline discussions. Sure, some threads will get out of hand. Tell me what threads DON'T get out of hand from time to time. Its the internet for the love of God!!

If you don't like the direction a thread is going, then click the back button and move on!

 

[Airdale]

This website was started operated with the idea of being a resource for people who wish to educate themselves about an aviation career. The key words there are "educate themselves." It's not up to us to "educate" the new person. That makes us sound like the secret police ("Come with me for re-education"). It's up to us provide the information and let the newbie take what he wants from it.

I just want to say that you make some good points skydog. It is up to the viewer/newbie to educate themselves about this career.

I for one do not sit here before I post and think "Will a newbie think this is positive or show some negative aspects of this career?". I just post what I feel at the moment, whether its a positive point or negative. Why? Because thats what I used to educate myself on when I was a newbie here.

I say "Thank You" to everyone who was honest about this industry, including the Union talk, and didn't try and sugar coat things by always saying "This is the best job....ever!1!11!!". Thats exactly why I don't hold back on how F'ed up this career can be and even how the Union that works for YOU can turn around and threaten you're job. Newbies NEED to listen to the good and bad of what they're getting into. I listened to it and came into the career with opened eyes.

I think JC is great the way it is. We may have more heated discussions lately, and there may be more "negative" posts recently, but guess what? This is reality. If a newbie/wannabe pilot can not handle the reality that this career is not always sweet overnights, hot flight attendants with short skirts and buttery nipple shots all the time, than they shouldn't be a pilot to begin with.

We've got too many pilots walking around in their own naive little worlds with no idea of the reality that is taking place around them. We need to eliminate that type of persona.

 

[Kristie]

We should have a sub-forum for people who post off topic. That would be a great idea.

we do.. it's call the lav.

and if ya'll didn't already digest doug's post.. he already said there'd be no sub-forum... so poll's over folks...there's really nothing to discuss about this anymore.

 

[KLB]

If I can just add one quick thing before this gets locked down.

As members of JC, we are responsible for moderating ourselves to a certain degree. We are responsible for keeping threads on topic. Now it's true that topics naturally evolve into discussions usually, which is a good thing. But it's not very natural for the majority of the topics to always evolve into the same subjects in every thread. Then it sort of turns into agenda pushing.

If we all do a good job of self moderating ourselves individually (I know...oxymoron), we could make the discussions much better. Keep it on topic.