Union Question

casey said:
and how much of that is because of a union? because of teamsters? because of the local leadership? How do you think it would have been handled sans unions?

ALPA (or teamsters) is only as good as your MEC leadership.
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I agree completely.

But there is only so much the MEC and pilots can do when both aren't allowed to be involved in critical decisions. There were certain deals that the two locals made with each other without consulting the MEC or pilots. I wish Shuttle would have been ALPA so teamsters couldn't have pulled the BS that they did.

I hope that the guys at Shuttle get this back into court and get some sort of justice. Probably a lost cause though.

Doug, it only was a relatively smooth merger because the Shuttle guys were basically blindsided by some shady deals and had to fight an uphill battle to get the screw job they did.
 
There needs to be a disclaimer when you enter the site that stats not to ask union questions or fear Dons wrath.
 
Actually Doug's wrath.

You really can't explain it until you've done a few months on the line and "see the light" for some people.

I've been down the "look, things aren't the way you think they are in the airline business" a million times and it does get a little 'challenging' after the 300th time the thread pops up.
 
I should have used one of the sarcasm things since I partly meant it in an offhanded way. Can see how it came across offensive, though it was partly serious, too.

No problem with asking questions. Questions with an anti-union slant will get one of my full blown, pro-union, responses. Like I said, no SIGNIFICANT disadvantages. Feel free to disagree, doesn't bother me one bit if you can come up with a good argument. Can you?
 
DE727UPS said:
I should have used one of the sarcasm things since I partly meant it in an offhanded way. Can see how it came across offensive, though it was partly serious, too.

No problem with asking questions. Questions with an anti-union slant will get one of my full blown, pro-union, responses. Like I said, no SIGNIFICANT disadvantages. Feel free to disagree, doesn't bother me one bit if you can come up with a good argument. Can you?
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Sure I can! Unions don't allow companies to compete in the free market system, and it's better to take a wage cut imposed by the company than lose your job altogether!

Wait...what do you mean that JetBlue didn't turn a profit last quarter...hmm....
 
DE727UPS said:
No problem with asking questions. Questions with an anti-union slant will get one of my full blown, pro-union, responses. Like I said, no SIGNIFICANT disadvantages. Feel free to disagree, doesn't bother me one bit if you can come up with a good argument. Can you?
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I agree that in general you'll probably have a "fairer shake" at an airline with a union, but there still are some problems. Like mentioned before, there will be those on the "back side of the bell curve" who are the lowest 5% keeping their job solely due to the union protections.

Additionally, it gives no incentive to "try" any harder. It establishes a bar that must be hopped over, but there's no real reason to go above and beyond the requisites. However, no non-union airline has instituted any sort of incentive-based upgrade/pay so this point is entirely moot, and is more of a problem within the industry rather than specific carriers.

The bigger issue, in my opinion is that some people think "It's union, everything is going to go great!"

But if you look at it, there are some pretty miserable companies with unions. GoJet, Great Lakes, Gulfstream (and that's just the Gs!), Mesa.

So one should not look at a union as the end-all to his or her problems. Yes, it's a good deal, but you're not necessarily going to solve all of your problems.
 
Yes, the union is going to protect those that should be gone long ago. God knows I had to deal with my fair share of those guys at SWA. But, to me, that's a price to pay (along with the dues) for the bargaining power.

As for the no incentive to try harder, there are plenty of people out there in non-union jobs that do just enough to not get fired. I don't think it's a question of union vs non-union, but a question of work ethic (or lack thereof).

Finally, a union is only as good as the pilots that form it. The MEC can't do its job unless it has good reps on the the committee and knows what the pilots want (hence the bazillion Wilson polls we're going through). In addition to that, if the MEC doesn't get the backing of the pilots, they're clipped at the knees. Which would you rather have, an MEC that calls for informational picketting and gets 100 pilots to sign up or one that gets about 24 pilots to sign up?
 
ALPA (or teamsters) is only as good as your MEC leadership.
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WRONG. Unions are only as good as their RANK and FILE. Period. Have a lazy/uninvolved membership doesn't matter how good/bad he leadership is because they are the ones who vote (or don't).
 
Additionally, it gives no incentive to "try" any harder. It establishes a bar that must be hopped over, but there's no real reason to go above and beyond the requisites. However, no non-union airline has instituted any sort of incentive-based upgrade/pay so this point is entirely moot, and is more of a problem within the industry rather than specific carriers.
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That's because "incentive based pay" in a SAFETY oriented business leads to dead people. In the case of airlines, lots of dead people.

But if you look at it, there are some pretty miserable companies with unions. GoJet, Great Lakes, Gulfstream (and that's just the Gs!), Mesa.
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and Trans States ...
 
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