Union Question
- Thread starter GaTechKid
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Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
I would bet the additional lack of cash, given our already ridiculously low salaries, is pretty high on that list...
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Uh... yeah, there are a bunch of disadvantages depending on HOW you are unionized.
Unions are VERY important to have but if they are not run correctly on the local (and national) level there can be problems. I'll post more on this later as I've got a van to catch in 10 minutes. The nice thing about unions is that even if I AM late for the van, chances our I won't get fired
Unions are VERY important to have but if they are not run correctly on the local (and national) level there can be problems. I'll post more on this later as I've got a van to catch in 10 minutes. The nice thing about unions is that even if I AM late for the van, chances our I won't get fired
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
I am still recovering from this question.
C'mon Don. You for real? Of course there are pros and cons of any situation.
If you haven't bothered to read "Flying The Line" which describes the profession pre-union and illustrates "pilot pushing", it's a little unnerving to be asked to wrap it up into a readily digestible morsel because one doesn't have time to read it.
If you've got time to study Vmc, you've got time to read the book.
So your position is there are no significant disadvantages to being in the union?
Sure you wouldn't like to change that to "the disadvantages do not out-weigh the advantages" because surely there are significant disadvantages to the union - not least of which is "the contract is the minimum the company will provide and the maximum the pilots will provide" which produces nothing but an antagonistic work environment.
No, just having gone thru this perhaps once or twice per year for the last seven years I don't have any interest in rehashing because the discussion always steers to the "Unions are Evil" in one camp and "Unions are the Second Coming" in the other camp.
The most simple answer is to look at the business pre organized labor and follow it thru the eventual rise of unions in the airline business and ride that "sine wave" thru modern day.
Almost like trying to explain to your neighbor why not being paid for a maintenance cancellation is a threat to safety.
I've worked for both a non-union airline and a union airline and it's a world of difference. There's a lot of things I could tell you but I don't want them part of the public, googlable record, so my answer is "do the reading."
The most simple answer is to look at the business pre organized labor and follow it thru the eventual rise of unions in the airline business and ride that "sine wave" thru modern day.
Almost like trying to explain to your neighbor why not being paid for a maintenance cancellation is a threat to safety.
I've worked for both a non-union airline and a union airline and it's a world of difference. There's a lot of things I could tell you but I don't want them part of the public, googlable record, so my answer is "do the reading."
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Gotta agree with JEP on this one. I've worked for a regional as a non-union employee. We got just as little as the union guys, except we had to be more on our toes. Mangement didn't like what or how you did something on a certain day, they could fire you and you'd have no re-course, especially in a right to work state. Not saying they would, but the threat was used a few times.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"C'mon Don. You for real? Of course there are pros and cons of any situation"
I am for real. I realize there are pros and cons. See that I said there are no "SIGNIFICANT" cons. And I stand by my statement, though I should have used a sarcasim tag in my first response since it was partly tounge in cheek.
Are YOU for real, Merit? I know you're anti-union from past threads, yet your not in the biz. Wait tell you are and see if you change your mind....
I am for real. I realize there are pros and cons. See that I said there are no "SIGNIFICANT" cons. And I stand by my statement, though I should have used a sarcasim tag in my first response since it was partly tounge in cheek.
Are YOU for real, Merit? I know you're anti-union from past threads, yet your not in the biz. Wait tell you are and see if you change your mind....
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
I am not anti anything. I just think that there has to be a logic of both pros and cons on each side.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Okie, I've got time to actually respond to this now.
The question cruise asked was what are the disadvantages of unions. Not are unions the second coming of baby jesus or are they evil. So, from my limited (one year) perspective, here you go. Keep in mind, for every negative I am listing here there are probably five positives.
While unions do protect you from unfair firing practices, they also protect some people who shouldn't be protected. There are about 3 captains at my airline that would have been out on the street a LONG time ago for doing really stupid stuff except for the fact that the union has protected them every time. Now, there are also probably 10s of people who have been accused of stuff by the company unfairly and would be on the street if it weren't for the union, but the side of effect is that there are several captains that are in fact unsafe currently flying the line. Pro Stands (the union really) can only talk to them so much and they know how to play the game so nothing ever really happens.
A union is made up of it's member's and technically a union's leadership is supposed to react to the will of the members. However, it is possible to have leadership that becomes out of touch with the members and does things with out their consent. We now have a clause in our contract that states that ANY decisions regarding quality of life and compensation must be voted on by the pilot group and not just the MEC. Here we have company protecting the members from the union leadership. Our current contracted was voted down by something like 85% of the membership. However, our leadership signed on the dotted line anyways saying it was in our best interest. They did this on two other occasions before the protection clause was put into the contract.
And finally, ALPA specific, it is very difficult for a national union to represent a major and their feed without running into a conflict of interest. I'm not even talking about the whole who gets the new airplanes argument. In a general sense, growth is always good so any union should be lobbying for new aircraft on property. Obviously, new 90 seat RJs mean no new 737s and likewise from the mainline point of view. What I am referring to is the fact that a mainline union can reinterpret a LOA or a deal made at their connivance and force it on a feeder union because they are both ALPA, and regrettably 2% of a mainline pilot's paycheck is worth a lot more then 2% of a regional pilot's.
So, are their disadvantages? Certainly. Are there MUCH bigger advantages to being unionized? Hell yes. But to simply say, no, there aren't and don't talk about it because it was much worse before doesn't really solve anything.
The question cruise asked was what are the disadvantages of unions. Not are unions the second coming of baby jesus or are they evil. So, from my limited (one year) perspective, here you go. Keep in mind, for every negative I am listing here there are probably five positives.
While unions do protect you from unfair firing practices, they also protect some people who shouldn't be protected. There are about 3 captains at my airline that would have been out on the street a LONG time ago for doing really stupid stuff except for the fact that the union has protected them every time. Now, there are also probably 10s of people who have been accused of stuff by the company unfairly and would be on the street if it weren't for the union, but the side of effect is that there are several captains that are in fact unsafe currently flying the line. Pro Stands (the union really) can only talk to them so much and they know how to play the game so nothing ever really happens.
A union is made up of it's member's and technically a union's leadership is supposed to react to the will of the members. However, it is possible to have leadership that becomes out of touch with the members and does things with out their consent. We now have a clause in our contract that states that ANY decisions regarding quality of life and compensation must be voted on by the pilot group and not just the MEC. Here we have company protecting the members from the union leadership. Our current contracted was voted down by something like 85% of the membership. However, our leadership signed on the dotted line anyways saying it was in our best interest. They did this on two other occasions before the protection clause was put into the contract.
And finally, ALPA specific, it is very difficult for a national union to represent a major and their feed without running into a conflict of interest. I'm not even talking about the whole who gets the new airplanes argument. In a general sense, growth is always good so any union should be lobbying for new aircraft on property. Obviously, new 90 seat RJs mean no new 737s and likewise from the mainline point of view. What I am referring to is the fact that a mainline union can reinterpret a LOA or a deal made at their connivance and force it on a feeder union because they are both ALPA, and regrettably 2% of a mainline pilot's paycheck is worth a lot more then 2% of a regional pilot's.
So, are their disadvantages? Certainly. Are there MUCH bigger advantages to being unionized? Hell yes. But to simply say, no, there aren't and don't talk about it because it was much worse before doesn't really solve anything.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"Our current contracted was voted down by something like 85% of the membership. However, our leadership signed on the dotted line anyways saying it was in our best interest. They did this on two other occasions before the protection clause was put into the contract"
You should vote the bastiges out. Aren't you at Coex?
You should vote the bastiges out. Aren't you at Coex?
Bandit_Driver
Gold Member
Just look at how Teamsters screwed up the meger of CHQ and Shuttle America. Both were teamsters and Shuttle got screwed. The non union employees (FA, Mech, etc) got a great deal compared with the union pilots.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Not Coex. PSA. And we did vote the guys out (although it took 4 years because the LECs were all in their pocket and we had to recall the LECs first and then have them recall the MEC.
I'm not saying a union is bad. I'm just saying it isn't always perfect and hence, talking about the imperfections at one place may be able to prevent them at another.
Not to sound sarcastic, but that in comparison that that really smooth seniority list merger?
eglplt
Well-Known Member
On the other hand, look at how the Teamsters were able to help the Netjets pilots earn the current leading contract in the fractional industry! Wait, the only contract in the fractional industry.
casey
Well-Known Member
and how much of that is because of a union? because of teamsters? because of the local leadership? How do you think it would have been handled sans unions?
ALPA (or teamsters) is only as good as your MEC leadership.