Unemployed again

Sorry to hear that, you just can't seem to catch a lucky break.



He should have. Everyone talks about how it's bad for this, bad for that. Seems like everyone I've talked to says to do whatever it takes to get that TPIC to get hired with them. "Lie, steal, and cheat" flight time.

Isn't the industry about getting on top and getting your own?

The point wasn't about going to GoJet, it was about making a decision on your own and then owning that decision. Get input from JC, consider the points of view and issues...and then make your own decision...whether that decision involves what airline to work for, what headset to buy, etc.

What you DO NOT do is make a decision then after you hit a rough patch blame others for the decision YOU made. This isn't an "I told you so" thread, this is a teachable moment for others on the board that are just learning how to network - and we are using Aloft as an example of what NOT to do.

1) Never lash out at people (CitationKid) that you perceive have had an easier time than you - particularly if they are superior at networking like Alex is. The "win" is to become friends with people like Alex, learn from his networking skills, and perhaps have him even lead you into opportunities that he can't take advantage of.

2) Never blame others for your decisions - ever. If a person on a hiring committee is reading this thread, or the previous one, he sees a person that a) outsources his decision making to Seggy, Jtrain, et al and b) complains about the decision that is made by blaming the aforementioned people.

If I am hiring someone I don't care much about mistakes that are made - I care about identifying why it was a mistake, I care about how you won't make the same mistake again, and I care about ownership of the mistake. Give me those three things and your hired. I think many people share this view. This thread is too late for Aloft - he didn't learn from the previous thread - this thread is to serve as a learning opportunity for younger JC members who are just now learning about networking and how it works.

I will say that Alex did get one advantage from his parents - somehow they created an environment that was conducive to him learning how to network. I had this as well - and I am not sure what exactly it was - but there is something you pick up from an early age (probably watching parents do it) that makes it kind of inbred. I would suggest that along with your FAR/AIM, Fate is the Hunter, and Flying the Line reading that you also add Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People". It is an amazing book, and if you take it to heart you will gain some great knowledge.
 
Fact is, I'd likely have another job to fall back on if I had the hundreds of hours of multiengine turbine time you did by the time you had my total time, or even if I had my mom sign off on 60 hours of multiengine time in my logbook. But not all of us can be (or want to be) the guy hired into a 121 cockpit with only 400 hours, or have a CFI mom.

When you've walked a mile in my shoes, you can lecture me all you like. Until then, zip it, <edited>.

Aloft, time counts when you are joe-schmo coming in off the street. Networking seems to get you passed that hump. When I worked at Supermarine I networked my butt off. Met the crew for a BIG TIME celebrity and I still stay in contact with them. Anyways two years after I met them they offered me a job to co-pilot his PC-12 in preparation to move into his G-IV. The only reason I couldn't take it is because I didn't have my commercial, hell I didn't even have my PPL. Oh yeah, this is just one instance of something like this happening.
De nile ain't just a river in Egypt.
 
What you DO NOT do is make a decision then after you hit a rough patch blame others for the decision YOU made. This isn't an "I told you so" thread, this is a teachable moment for others on the board that are just learning how to network - and we are using Aloft as an example of what NOT to do.

1) Never lash out at people (CitationKid) that you perceive have had an easier time than you - particularly if they are superior at networking like Alex is. The "win" is to become friends with people like Alex, learn from his networking skills, and perhaps have him even lead you into opportunities that he can't take advantage of.

2) Never blame others for your decisions - ever. If a person on a hiring committee is reading this thread, or the previous one, he sees a person that a) outsources his decision making to Seggy, Jtrain, et al and b) complains about the decision that is made by blaming the aforementioned people.

If I am hiring someone I don't care much about mistakes that are made - I care about identifying why it was a mistake, I care about how you won't make the same mistake again, and I care about ownership of the mistake. Give me those three things and your hired.

This is why I like WacoFan so much. Especially the emphasized part. Well done.

I will say that Alex did get one advantage from his parents - somehow they created an environment that was conducive to him learning how to network. I had this as well - and I am not sure what exactly it was - but there is something you pick up from an early age (probably watching parents do it) that makes it kind of inbred. I would suggest that along with your FAR/AIM, Fate is the Hunter, and Flying the Line reading that you also add Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People". It is an amazing book, and if you take it to heart you will gain some great knowledge.

Personally, I suck at networking. Terrible. Part of my problem is I could never be friends with, nor pretend to be friends with, someone merely to get a job.

I do take much away from this site, and networking is something I've gotten better at (say from "F" to "D-"). I think much of it has to do with meeting people with like interests as mine, diverse backgrounds and a spectrum of experience and skills that I just can't bump into on the line.
 
Part of my problem is I could never be friends with, nor pretend to be friends with, someone merely to get a job.

I never befriend someone with a motive like that in mind. To me that means putting up with their BS and selling yourself out for something that may never come. I like to meet friends with similar interests and that's about it.
 
Personally, I suck at networking. Terrible. Part of my problem is I could never be friends with, nor pretend to be friends with, someone merely to get a job.

I do take much away from this site, and networking is something I've gotten better at (say from "F" to "D-"). I think much of it has to do with meeting people with like interests as mine, diverse backgrounds and a spectrum of experience and skills that I just can't bump into on the line.

Yeah. The way I look at networking is making friends. Not for the sake of getting a job, but just for the sake of meeting cool people. If you can help them out later, cool.

Networking for the sake of (only) personal advancement is crap and I think most people will see through it. There's a guy I know from another website who I have made it no secret that I think he's an idiot. He's said a lot of things that were racist and has told a few of my other friends "I hope emu can walk my resume in at (wherever I work)." He knows I don't care for him much, but that doesn't stop him from the monthly facebook friend request.
 
I never befriend someone with a motive like that in mind. To me that means putting up with their BS and selling yourself out for something that may never come. I like to meet friends with similar interests and that's about it.

Unfortunately, most of my peer network examples were based on just that. Too much of the "what's in it for me" going on.

All I knew was that it wasn't right, but didn't know how to go about it the right way.
 
I do take much away from this site, and networking is something I've gotten better at (say from "F" to "D-"). I think much of it has to do with meeting people with like interests as mine, diverse backgrounds and a spectrum of experience and skills that I just can't bump into on the line.

Unfortunately I think a lot of people misunderstand just what networking is. A person that befriends me with surreptitious motives in mind is:
1. Typically pretty easy to spot their true intentions
2. not likely to be a long term friend anyway
3. Not likely to have any reciprocal value to me in that relationship

I think Joe (Fly22) said it best at one of out meet and greets; he said "you know, if I had said I was bringing a Fedex Captain we would have had five times as many people show up"

I think that sort of networking comes across much like cold calling telemarketers, and people see right through it.

But networking just for the sake of meeting new people, making connections in diverse areas of this and other industries, and being friendly (not necessarily best friends) is what people should focus on more. Almost all of the work I have gotten since I got my commercial certificate came from people that I had chatted up, been friendly with, and maintained a basic but not constant contact with. You never know who it is that can help you in your career; the CFI I refer a student I can't mesh schedules with today, may be the chief pilot somewhere I want to work in 20 years.
 
Yeah. The way I look at networking is making friends. Not for the sake of getting a job, but just for the sake of meeting cool people. If you can help them out later, cool.

Networking for the sake of (only) personal advancement is crap and I think most people will see through it. There's a guy I know from another website who I have made it no secret that I think he's an idiot. He's said a lot of things that were racist and has told a few of my other friends "I hope emu can walk my resume in at (wherever I work)." He knows I don't care for him much, but that doesn't stop him from the monthly facebook friend request.

This is a great post.

First, learn to make friends with people on a consistent basis (and Polar knows how to do this). Make these friends for for the simple reason that having friends is better than not having friends. On a macro-level though...look at your friends like inventory in a warehouse. Some of your inventory is worth a lot...some of it is worth a little...and you need to identify at some point which of your inventory is worth something and for what.

One of the most important things about networking is this - sometimes you have to give before you can get. If you are a person that tries to help friends (and trying is enough), then that will come back to you ten-fold. Also...don't utilize your network by bluntly asking "You are in my network - can you find me a job?". Utilize your network by putting yourself "out there" by asking for advice and guidance and other things in this vein. People love to help - and they are flattered to be asked for help - and if you have developed a strong friendship based on real things, have offered help to others, and have been basically "not a toolbag"...then these things will come back to you tenfold.

Polar, if he lost his job tomorrow, would have his inbox here at JC full within a day. Some would be leads, some would be offers to help, some would simply be "I'll keep my eyes open for you - good luck". Either way - that is an example of Polars networking, so he is actually good at it. I guarantee that would happen.

I pass all of the above requirements, save the "not a toolbag" requirement, therefore my inbox would only be half full.
 
This is a great post.

First, learn to make friends with people on a consistent basis (and Polar knows how to do this). Make these friends for for the simple reason that having friends is better than not having friends. On a macro-level though...look at your friends like inventory in a warehouse. Some of your inventory is worth a lot...some of it is worth a little...and you need to identify at some point which of your inventory is worth something and for what.

One of the most important things about networking is this - sometimes you have to give before you can get. If you are a person that tries to help friends (and trying is enough), then that will come back to you ten-fold. Also...don't utilize your network by bluntly asking "You are in my network - can you find me a job?". Utilize your network by putting yourself "out there" by asking for advice and guidance and other things in this vein. People love to help - and they are flattered to be asked for help - and if you have developed a strong friendship based on real things, have offered help to others, and have been basically "not a toolbag"...then these things will come back to you tenfold.

Polar, if he lost his job tomorrow, would have his inbox here at JC full within a day. Some would be leads, some would be offers to help, some would simply be "I'll keep my eyes open for you - good luck". Either way - that is an example of Polars networking, so he is actually good at it. I guarantee that would happen.

I pass all of the above requirements, save the "not a toolbag" requirement, therefore my inbox would only be half full.

Wait... you can get jobs through networking? I thought this was all about scoring free beer! :pirate:
 
Wow aloft.

Sorry your gravy train has been derailed, but now looking at some of your previous posts. . .I really wish you the best of luck finding a position - any position.

As far as the discussion on networking. Networking isn't always about getting your foot in the door for your next job. To me it's about building a relationship with people in which you share a common thread. Be it family members, previous employees, previous employers, friends and associates, etc. Networking = Friendship.
 
Wait... you can get jobs through networking? I thought this was all about scoring free beer! :pirate:

That too.

I've done my share of networking and got my current job because of someone here.

All it is talking to people who you think are cool and then keeping in touch with them. You never know when they might be able to help you out, and you never know when you might be able to help them out.
 
lol.... well I have been asked by the geniuses in the E food court if I wanted the drink menu during ready reserve.... :dunno: guess these are the same people that tend to think we look like gate agents.

I've also been mistaken for a security guard too. Some lady came rushing up to me in C concourse asking if I was a security guard. I said no and asked what I could help her with and she said that someone had left a pedometer in the womens bathroom. I didn't really know what to say.
 
I've also been mistaken for a security guard too. Some lady came rushing up to me in C concourse asking if I was a security guard. I said no and asked what I could help her with and she said that someone had left a pedometer in the womens bathroom. I didn't really know what to say.

Maybe she was concerned someone was going to have a coronary when she saw the pedometer and it only had 13 steps on it....:D
 
Bummer. Welcome to aviation. Suck it up, dude.

http://forums.jetcareers.com/1232042-post28.html

Fact is, you'd likely have another job to fall back on quite quickly if you'd give up your bitterness and contempt for everyone else, and started worrying about yourself. Yes, some will have it easier in their career, but some will also have a tougher time getting to where they want to be. Besides sheer luck, the major difference maker is attitude.

If you stop burning bridges, in time you'll cross one.

Good luck.

I 100% agree. Aloft, if you didnt seem so bitter at EVERYONE I think a lot of people would want to help you out.

209096095_68e0c7f688.jpg


209096055_b471ed7e4a.jpg



I think what they're referring to is this thread: http://forums.jetcareers.com/member-announcements/91233-unemployed-2.html

Where statements like: (http://forums.jetcareers.com/1232042-post28.html)

Bummer. Welcome to adulthood, kid. Suck it up and drive on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citationkid
I am considering it. My best friend got an A-10 slot at 19 years old and finished OTS when he was 20. The biggest problem is my eyesight is not 20/20.

You don't need 20/20 anymore, that's a myth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citationkid
It is hard to believe when I think about it, but this is my eighth aviation job. I was jobless for the last few months because I am not willing to work for the low pay that the majority of jobs offer. It sucks to think all I qualify for job wise is flying for Colgan making $18,000 a year, or right seat part 135 for $24,000 a year. I am all for paying dues, but I am starting to wonder if aviation takes a determined person, or a person will little to no self worth. I just don't want to be one of those guys who says "Pilots should be paid well" and then go work for $18,000 a year. Like I said earlier, a lot of this is just venting.

Dude, you're twenty years old. Quit your bitching. Most of your peers are still working for minimum wage at Taco Bell. You've been on JC since you were what, 14, and those of us who've been around all that time have had the opportunity to follow your progression. Bottom line, you've had it VERY easy to this point in your life and flying career, and frankly, it's about time you learned that life isn't always so easy.

Seriously.

Sucks that your gravy train got derailed, but welcome to life. It happens to everyone.

and: (http://forums.jetcareers.com/1233937-post55.html)

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Re: Unemployeed
Quote:
Originally Posted by E_Dawg
For some reason it's not uncommon for people to assume achievement at a young age is attributed to someone else handing it to you. Obviously you have worked hard to follow your passion and get to where you are.

Think so, Ed? Ask Alex how many hours of jet/multi-turbine time he'd logged before he could drive a car or solo a 152, and how he came to log them. His CFI corporate/charter pilot mother knew how to game the system and made sure he was primed to do so. In my opinion, it was nothing more than logbook padding, made legal by his mama's signature.

THAT'S how he got where he is today, not through hard work.

and: (http://forums.jetcareers.com/1233981-post61.html)

icon1.gif
Re: Unemployeed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Taylor
We're both adults here so let me give you some constructive criticism. I'm not going to assume malice, but you're really coming off as a very bitter person, Aloft.

You think? I'm playing by the rules, didn't have an opportunity to game the system such as Alex did, and yet with over 1100 hours legitimately logged, I'm still flying traffic watch in a 172 for minimum f'ing wage a handful of hours a week (just got my paycheck for the entire month of June: $137.26). [That's right, Seggy, jtrain and friends: I honored your virtual picket line and didn't apply at GoJet when I had the chance. Happy? Good. You can pay my overdue car registration and get its air conditioning fixed, cause I sure as hell don't have the money to.] To make matters worse, I'm forced to compete with all the furloughed 121 guys who got hired with 400 hrs for any and every job out there that would help me make the next step. Call it bitter if you want, but you try to not be frustrated in such a situation.

There are a lot of us on here who barely missed the last hiring wave, who will have a much more difficult time of things going forward than those who caught it--to including having to compete with them for jobs, having to meet the "newer, safer" mandated regional hiring rules that are sure to come. So forgive me if I have a low tolerance for a twenty year old who has yet to extract the silver spoon from his mouth complain about how working for $18,000/yr at Great Lakes is somehow beneath him. I can't even get that job, because I'm competing with people with bogus time like him and the other 400 hour wonders who've been furloughed. I hate to see anyone lose a job, but seriously: cry me a river.

So, Doug, while you're lounging poolside on your layover in Spain sipping your Sangria, why don't you reflect on just how easy you've had it in your career to date before calling someone out for being bitter. You haven't had it easy, you say? Refresh my memory: who paid for your ERAU education? How much turbine PIC time do you have again? That's what I thought.


Were made. Perhaps that's what the guys were referencing.

All I can say is, WOW! :eek:

This is why I like WacoFan so much. Especially the emphasized part. Well done.

I have to agree with this, and we dont even agree on a lot of things. Waco is a good dude.
 
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