UFO over Hilo

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ATN_Pilot said:
The difference is that our scientists are trying to learn how to communicate with dolphins and other animals that demonstrate a more advanced intelligence. To believe the UFO community, these aliens aren't even attempting to make contact. Sorry, it's just not believable.
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Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there are aliens that sometimes hang around our planet. How do you know they haven't made contact? Because they haven't made contact with you personally? Because you don't know about it?

If aliens HAD made contact...I think it's more likely that you or I, being only one of billions of people on the planet, would NOT know about it.

Scenario 1: They make contact with some average Joe blow, he/she spreads the word, and everyone else decides they are crazy. How many times have people made claims like this? How do you know they are all crazy?

Scenario 2: They make contact with the leaders of the world, and the leaders decide not to tell the lay people because they don't want everyone to freak out and have panic in the streets.

If aliens did make contact, I doubt they would make a simultaneous broadcast to every person in the world. Maybe, but I doubt it.
 
Why do SETI and so many people take it for granted that two different species from differing worlds will be able to understand one another when we may encounter them? Will aliens even be able to speak human language given that no two species on Earth have exactly the same physical structure that produces sound? If humans can't fully understand dolphins, then it's not entirely a foregone conclusion to assume that unforeseen hardships may lie ahead in that field. Perhaps some kind of technology may find a way around it.
 
staledog said:
Let's say, for the sake of argument, that there are aliens that sometimes hang around our planet. How do you know they haven't made contact? Because they haven't made contact with you personally? Because you don't know about it?

If aliens HAD made contact...I think it's more likely that you or I, being only one of billions of people on the planet, would NOT know about it.

Scenario 1: They make contact with some average Joe blow, he/she spreads the word, and everyone else decides they are crazy. How many times have people made claims like this? How do you know they are all crazy?

Scenario 2: They make contact with the leaders of the world, and the leaders decide not to tell the lay people because they don't want everyone to freak out and have panic in the streets.

If aliens did make contact, I doubt they would make a simultaneous broadcast to every person in the world. Maybe, but I doubt it.
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I don't buy this at all. A race advanced enough to travel millions of light years across the galaxy to meet us, and they decide to meet Jim Bob from Mississippi? No, not gonna happen. An alien race would either make themselves known to everyone, or make themselves known to key world leaders. And I don't buy any conspiracy theories, much less one that involves multiple world governments keeping such a big secret effectively.
 
FoodStampsPilot said:
Why do SETI and so many people take it for granted that two different species from differing worlds will be able to understand one another when we may encounter them? Will aliens even be able to speak human language given that no two species on Earth have exactly the same physical structure that produces sound? If humans can't fully understand dolphins, then it's not entirely a foregone conclusion to assume that unforeseen hardships may lie ahead in that field. Perhaps some kind of technology may find a way around it.
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I think it just stands to reason that a race advanced enough for interstellar travel could figure out how to communicate with us relatively easily.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
The difference is that our scientists are trying to learn how to communicate with dolphins and other animals that demonstrate a more advanced intelligence. To believe the UFO community, these aliens aren't even attempting to make contact. Sorry, it's just not believable.
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I don't know, I'd like to think they will come down in their ship, emerge, give the Vulcan greeting and tell us to live long and prosper in perfect English.

However, a just as likely scenario is they come down and look upon us like wild animals on their safari ride.

The reality is we have no idea what will happen when aliens visit. What I do believe though, is while we like to think we are a highly evolved species because we compare ourselves to other species on earth. When we start comparing ourselves to species capable of interstellar travel, I think we will quickly shift to the lower level of the life form scale. Just like a monkey doesn't care or try to communicate with a sloth, they may not care or try to communicate with us.

What will happen, neither of us know and I think its silly to argue over. But I think, when it does happen, we as a species will realize, by force or self reflection, that we are not as great and all powerful as we believe ourselves to be. And we may not be worthy of their time and effort to attempt communication.
 
Matt13C said:
I don't know, I'd like to think they will come down in their ship, emerge, give the Vulcan greeting and tell us to live long and prosper in perfect English.

However, a just as likely scenario is they come down and look upon us like wild animals on their safari ride.

The reality is we have no idea what will happen when aliens visit. What I do believe though, is while we like to think we are a highly evolved species because we compare ourselves to other species on earth. When we start comparing ourselves to species capable of interstellar travel, I think we will quickly shift to the lower level of the life form scale. Just like a monkey doesn't care or try to communicate with a sloth, they may not care or try to communicate with us.
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That is certainly possible--which is why I think Dr. Hawkings is right to say that we shouldn't be actively trying to contact aliens. There is no way of telling how they may react, or whether they are even more hostile and arrogant than we are.

What will happen, neither of us know and I think its silly to argue over. But I think, when it does happen, we as a species will realize, by force or self reflection, that we are not as great and all powerful as we believe ourselves to be. And we may not be worthy of their time and effort to attempt communication.
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You're probably right on that, but you have to admit though that it is interesting to dwell over the possibilities. A thread won't reach the seven pages mark if people didn't find it to be intriguing.
 
The premise at the beginning of Michael Crichton's book Sphere (before it gets into time travel) is a good one. Basically, we have assumed that even if potential aliens can't speak English (or Spanish, or Latin or whatever) we would be able to communicate via some common language, normally thought to be mathematics. The flaw with this theory is that it assumes that an alien species actually passes information using a sense we do, whether it be audible, pictorial or something else we could comprehend. What if they communicate using thought waves or percentages of gas exhaled and inhaled or something equally as strange and foreign to us. The other strange possibility he mentions in the book is the issue of multiple dimensions. We at best can comprehend 4 dimensions (when you add in time), although visually we can only see 3. What would happen if these aliens exist in 5 or 6 or 20 dimensions? It would be very difficult to communicate with something you can only see part of the time or not at all.
 
FoodStampsPilot said:
That is certainly possible--which is why I think Dr. Hawkings is right to say that we shouldn't be actively trying to contact aliens. There is no way of telling how they may react, or whether they are even more hostile and arrogant than we are.

You're probably right on that, but you have to admit though that it is interesting to dwell over the possibilities. A thread won't reach the seven pages mark if people didn't find it to be intriguing.
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Very interesting to dwell on. I love these kinds of discussions. I just don't think it makes sense to argue over something like, will they or wont they try and make contact. They might, but they might not. I hope there are countless other species out there more advanced than we are. If there are, each one will have a different approach to handling foreign species.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't buy this at all. A race advanced enough to travel millions of light years across the galaxy to meet us, and they decide to meet Jim Bob from Mississippi? No, not gonna happen. An alien race would either make themselves known to everyone, or make themselves known to key world leaders. And I don't buy any conspiracy theories, much less one that involves multiple world governments keeping such a big secret effectively.
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You've mentioned Jim Bob and Cletus many times. You know, not every person who claims to have been contacted is a backwoods redneck. Many "normal" non-redneck people have made the same claims. And as far as contact with world leaders, well, I know you think our leaders tell us everything and would never keep secrets like this from the public, but I (and many others) think they would. Our leaders are only going to tell us as much as they think they need to in order to get themselves past the next election. They don't/won't tell us anything just because "they think we should know", or "it's the right thing to do".

I also find it interesting that you write several posts telling everyone here how intelligent life couldn't have possibly visited Earth, but THEN, you tell everyone how they would think/act/communicate IF they came to our planet. (They would be hostile, they would announce their arrival to everyone, etc).
 
Matt13C said:
What I do believe though, is while we like to think we are a highly evolved species because we compare ourselves to other species on earth.
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Actually, I don't think that at all. I think of us as a pathetic, primitive, barbaric race. But that doesn't change the fact that we are an intelligent race capable of complex communication, and any visiting race could easily see that. Sorry, but I'm just not buying that they wouldn't try to communicate. I find it ludicrous.
 
staledog said:
You've mentioned Jim Bob and Cletus many times. You know, not every person who claims to have been contacted is a backwoods redneck.
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Maybe, but I can't think of any off of the top of my head who aren't. They certainly seem to be the predominant group of people claiming such nonsense, for sure.

And as far as contact with world leaders, well, I know you think our leaders tell us everything and would never keep secrets like this from the public
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You think wrong. I don't believe that at all. People are power-hungry by nature, and knowledge is power. Keeping knowledge from the public is always something that people in positions of power like to do. My argument has never been that they don't want to keep things secret. My argument has always been that such elaborate secrets are impossible to keep. They may want to keep these secrets, but it's impossible. Whistle-blowers would always come forward, evidence would be leaked, etc. But that hasn't happened. Take a look at Wikileaks, for example. Assange has come out and said that with all of the data he's received from an incredible number of sources within government, he has yet to receive anything on UFOs or aliens. The most he's seen, as he said in a recent interview, is government concern about cults that worship UFOs and aliens. If even the mighty Julian Assange can't get whistleblowers to provide the slightest bit of evidence about UFOs or aliens, then I'm sorry, but it doesn't exist. Such huge secrets can't be kept in a bureaucracy.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Actually, I don't think that at all. I think of us as a pathetic, primitive, barbaric race. But that doesn't change the fact that we are an intelligent race capable of complex communication, and any visiting race could easily see that. Sorry, but I'm just not buying that they wouldn't try to communicate. I find it ludicrous.
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Why is it so ludicrous to think that a being clearly superior to us, most likely in every way, would be compelled to talk to us? What would they want to know and more importantly what could we teach them? You are hoping they are on a purely fact finding or scientific mission to learn about other species. But what if they are on a mission for resources and we are simply in the way?

Do we try and communicate with primates, our closest genetic relatives who are capable of understanding and reacting to human speech, when we go and knock down acres of rainforest? Nope, we cut and bulldoze and let them figure it out, or not, on their own.
 
Matt13C said:
What would they want to know and more importantly what could we teach them?
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Quite simply, we could teach them about us. If they're here and they haven't destroyed us, then they're clearly here on a scientific mission. There is no other reason to be zipping around our atmosphere. So if they want to learn about us, the obvious thing to do is to talk to us. This is just common sense. Lurking in the shadows makes no sense.

But what if they are on a mission for resources and we are simply in the way?
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If that was the case, then they would have gotten us "out of the way" decades ago.

Do we try and communicate with primates
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Do some research. There is actually a ton of work that scientists do in trying to develop communication with primates.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Quite simply, we could teach them about us. If they're here and they haven't destroyed us, then they're clearly here on a scientific mission. There is no other reason to be zipping around our atmosphere. So if they want to learn about us, the obvious thing to do is to talk to us. This is just common sense. Lurking in the shadows makes no sense.
If that was the case, then they would have gotten us "out of the way" decades ago.
Do some research. There is actually a ton of work that scientists do in trying to develop communication with primates.
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Ahh, see there is the disconnect. I am not talking about if aliens are already here, I don't think they are and it appears you don't either. If they were, and have been for decades, then yes I think by this point they would have tried to communicate. I was talking more hypothetical, if/when they come. I think it's 50/50 whether they try and communicate, depends on their mission, but I don't think it's a given they would or even do it right away if they intend to.

On the primate topic, yes I am aware we try to communicate. That tends to be in a lab though or in a safe location, not a place we are planning to destroy. We dont try and communicate in an attempt to get them to relocate, we just do as we please. If aliens came to strip us of our resources, odds are they dont care about our survival in which case they have no reason to communicate, unless they want to subjugate us to do the work.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
...... My argument has always been that such elaborate secrets are impossible to keep......
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My argument has always been that a few JC members post with wreckless disregard for historical facts. The Catholic Church was able to keep the secret of their pedophilia practitioners for centuries. Whistleblowers tried to speak, but were ignored and ridiculed. People just didn't want to believe it, and were too frightened to believe it. Similar story at Penn State and the Boy Scouts. Hardly an elaborate, complex, other worldly story. But still too much for most 20th Century people to absorb, jet age or no jet age. So the silence and ignorant ridicule continued, children molested right under the nose of their trusting parents and guardians. That "secret" kept just fine by the noisy self appointed gatekeepers and authority figures. Frauds all.

No alien presence? How would a population too steeped in denial to know that it's own children were being raped by its priests, right under their noses, be sure of knowing anything about alien presence? Secrets are easy to keep in a population of people who brutally ridicule what they do not understand and fear.
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