UFO over Hilo

[Cloud Surfer]

Well, we are in agreement as far as this is concerned, because I agree with you here. Take the wormhole for example. It's basically a shortcut through spacetime. Technically you can get from one side to the other, travelling a shorter distance, than it would take light to "go-around" the wormhole.

So in a way, you are travelling "faster-than-light", even though locally you really aren't.

Yup, that is exactly of what I was thinking. You're not actually going FTL. You're only stretching the fabric of space-time by using a wormhole to bring two points closer together. There is also the Alcubierre Warp Drive theory which incorporates warping of the space-time continuum. I have no idea how close if ever humans are to pulling them off, but my layman guess is simply A VERY LONG TIME.

 

[Cloud Surfer]

At the end it was not a great mystery................
Now if someone offered this as a kit I would build it as an Experimental.........

Haha, I like how whoever made that put not one, but TWO gravity generators in there...ooo, impressive. As if it makes it any less real.

 

[born2aviate]

No offense, but the fact that you refuse to believe something doesn't make it any less valid. There are thousands of Physicists who know an infinite amount more on this subject than you, that would love to disagree with you. You don't possess the knowledge necessary to make a determination of what is possible or what isn't in this case.

You say that we are dealing with the unknown, which is true to some extent, but there are certain things that we do know. Number one, it is imposssible to exceed the speed of light. Read that again. It is NOT possible. It doesn't matter how advanced a civilization is, you cannot operate outside of the physical laws which govern the universe in which we live. Period.

Secondly, we don't KNOW that wormholes are a valid way of circunavigating the speed of light. I don't know where you pulled that information from. Wormholes are theoretically possible per general relativity, however no observational evidence has ever been obtained to support their existence. Even if there was, this would be no guarantee that they could be successfully utilized for long distance travel.

I suggest you read the Wikipedia article concerning wormholes. It's quite interesting, very well written, and you may learn something if you don't mind sifting through some pretty technical explanations.

There are many things which we know that we know.
There are many more things which we know we don't know.
And there are infinitely more things which we don't know, that we don't know!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The only reason that I can think of for ETs coming here is mainly scientific. Scientists travel to all corners of the world, employing whichever resources that they have available to them so that they can meet their goals and learn as much as they can about what they study.

I can agree with this, but the problem is that these supposed aliens aren't doing that. Instead of doing all they can to learn about us, they're instead supposedly hiding in the cover of darkness (while still lighting themselves up, for some reason), generally avoiding heavily populated areas, and not making contact with anyone. This doesn't jive with a species that is trying to study us and our planet. If that was the goal, then they would, you know, ask us! A marine biologist can't sit down and have a conversation with a sea turtle. So instead, she has to follow the turtle around, observe it from afar, etc. in order to lean as much as possible. Not so with intelligent life forms. It would be clear to the aliens that we are a species capable of advanced levels of communication, so if they really wanted to learn about us, they would just try to communicate rather than hiding in the shadows and appearing only to people named Cleatus for the occasional anal probe in the middle of the night.

As for the lightspeed limitation, I refuse to believe that there isn't any other way of achieving interstellar travel. While we don't yet know of any way of traveling faster than the speed of light, we DO however know of one way of circumventing it: wormholes. And who knows, there may be other ways of getting around it which we will not come to understand until centuries or millenia have passed (assuming that we do not wipe ourselves out due to nuclear warfare and so forth). At one time no one thought that humans would be able to fly, or go faster than the speed of sound or go to the moon. Yet somehow we have because we were always willing to learn HOW to do it, and we had the goals and determination to do it. Now consider that the universe has existed for roughly 14 billion years. If there were a spacefaring species that had existed for 2 billion years, let's say, what would its technology be able to achieve? The sky is virtually the limit, and one thing that I don't like about the UFO/ET topic is that everyone is making up assumptions but the truth is fully that we are dealing with the unknown.

Here's the problem with your theory, which is the same problem with the theory that time travel might be possible: if the aliens have existed for all of this time (and chances are that another species would be far, far older than us, since our solar system is very young), then why did they just so happen to start their string of "visits" right around the same time that science fiction was becoming more popular in hollywood? Why did their flying machines look exactly like what the media imagined them to look like? Why did the aliens themselves, described by claimed abductees, look exactly like hollywood aliens? This all lines up more with a collective delusion of people who want to believe more than it lines up with any rational basis for believing that aliens have actually been visiting us. If there were aliens visiting Earth, it stands to reason that they would have been apparent long, long ago. Just like if time travel was possible, we would have already met someone who had traveled from the future.

 

[MikeD]

so if they really wanted to learn about us, they would just try to communicate rather than hiding in the shadows and appearing only to people named Cleatus for the occasional anal probe in the middle of the night.

 

[MQAAord]

Or maybe they've watched us so much, they've changed their appearance to live among us and study us from inside our society! They live as us, look like us, act like us, all in the name of research...

It could happen. That slightly quirky neighbor could actually be an undercover alien!

 

[Apophis]

Apophis, you're talking as if warp drive can't exist. Not only can it exist, but there have been recent breakthroughs in the equations indicating that it could be done with far less (albeit still an enormous amount) of energy required. Nobody is disputing Einstein that a ship can fly faster than the speed of light - instead this is a complete workaround. Einstein never said you can't contract space time on one side of you ship, expand it on the other and warp it around yourself so that your frame of reference remains stationary.

This may seem insane, but the fact that NASA physicists are actually entertaining the idea is to me very exciting. Maybe Star Trek was right all along?

What if NASA could figure out the math of a workable warp drive?
http://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...out-the-math-of-a-workable-warp-drive/265655/

Speaking of contracting spacetime, this actually has already been empircally proven, which is kind of crazy when you think about it. There is a phenomenon called Lorentz Contraction which occurs as an object approaches the speed of light. Essentially, at speeds approaching the speed of light, the physical distance between two points parallel to the direction of travel actually become shorter. Crazy.

Same thing with time dilation. These physical principles have been proven to be true, and to me, are more fascinating than anything we could ever draw up in science fiction.

 

[MQAAord]

There is so much we do not understand about the universe.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Or maybe they've watched us so much, they've changed their appearance to live among us and study us from inside our society! They live as us, look like us, act like us, all in the name of research...

It could happen. That slightly quirky neighbor could actually be an undercover alien!

Somewhere, as we speak, Qutch is doubling up the aluminum foil under his trucker hat.

 

[MQAAord]

Or maybe he's one of them!!!

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

Or maybe they've watched us so much, they've changed their appearance to live among us and study us from inside our society! They live as us, look like us, act like us, all in the name of research...

It could happen. That slightly quirky neighbor could actually be an undercover alien!

OMG... you wrote the scripts for the Men In Black movies, didn't you!

 

[MQAAord]

I wish!

 

[bunk22]

Somewhere, as we speak, Qutch is doubling up the aluminum foil under his trucker hat.

I have read this thread with some amusement and was wondering when he would add in his two cents, his cut and paste, page....after page....after page.....after page......................

 

[Apophis]

I have read this thread with some amusement and was wondering when he would add in his two cents, his cut and paste, page....after page....after page.....after page......................

But...but...BUT... If you knew the information that I had (and can't reveal) or the people I've spoken to (also, who I can't reveal) then you would understand!!!!!111111!!

 

[Cloud Surfer]

I can agree with this, but the problem is that these supposed aliens aren't doing that. Instead of doing all they can to learn about us, they're instead supposedly hiding in the cover of darkness (while still lighting themselves up, for some reason), generally avoiding heavily populated areas, and not making contact with anyone.

Agreed. I live next to KORD and there are UFO sightings over Lake Michigan that make it into the news almost every other week. That doesn't sound realistic to me.

doesn't jive with a species that is trying to study us and our planet. If that was the goal, then they would, you know, ask us! A marine biologist can't sit down and have a conversation with a sea turtle. So instead, she has to follow the turtle around, observe it from afar, etc. in order to lean as much as possible. Not so with intelligent life forms. It would be clear to the aliens that we are a species capable of advanced levels of communication, so if they really wanted to learn about us, they would just try to communicate rather than hiding in the shadows and appearing only to people named Cleatus for the occasional anal probe in the middle of the night.

Actually I can't fathom it going down like that at all. If I were an alien scientist that had a chance to come to Earth, the last planet that I would want to visit is this one. We are a barbaric, gruesome and vindictive species that arrogantly deems itself the next best thing to have graced this universe...and we are ignorantly willing to wreck our only homeworld just so that we can make an extra $. We just had our worst war merely 69 years ago wherein 20 million people were slaughtered for a murderous madman's sake. Yup, that definitely sounds like a lifeform that I would want to speak with. I can just see it now...alien spaceship lands in some major city...then some religious gun-toting whacko shoots the aliens and starts an interstellar incident.

Here's the problem with your theory, which is the same problem with the theory that time travel might be possible: if the aliens have existed for all of this time (and chances are that another species would be far, far older than us, since our solar system is very young), then why did they just so happen to start their string of "visits" right around the same time that science fiction was becoming more popular in hollywood? Why did their flying machines look exactly like what the media imagined them to look like? Why did the aliens themselves, described by claimed abductees, look exactly like hollywood aliens? This all lines up more with a collective delusion of people who want to believe more than it lines up with any rational basis for believing that aliens have actually been visiting us. If there were aliens visiting Earth, it stands to reason that they would have been apparent long, long ago. Just like if time travel was possible, we would have already met someone who had traveled from the future.

I hope I'm not making a strawman argument, but I don't grasp your meaning here. Are you saying that interstellar travel is impossible because aliens haven't yet been to Earth? As for alien abductions, I think it's obvious that they should fall within the same "genre" as ghosts and Big Foot. There isn't even remotely one shred of evidence for it.

 

[chrisreedrules]

But...but...BUT... If you knew the information that I had (and can't reveal) or the people I've spoken to (also, who I can't reveal) then you would understand!!!!!111111!!

If this was directed at me... I don't care if you understand anything or not. The only point I was trying to get across was that there is a lot that the public is not allowed to know. Am I a person who has direct knowledge of this stuff? No. But I've met with and talked to a lot of military pilots because of what I do for my "other job" and I can tell you that there are credible military pilots who have definitely seen a lot of odd things over the years. And I also know a very small amount about some of the projects my dad was involved with for the DoD over the years. If what I've been told/overheard is just the tip of the iceberg then I can confidently say that the public is sheltered behind "truth's protective layers". You can take that however you want it. Some of the things you read in science fiction books may not be far from the truth. But then again that is what DARPA does.

 

[Apophis]

If this was directed at me... I don't care if you understand anything or not. The only point I was trying to get across was that there is a lot that the public is not allowed to know. Am I a person who has direct knowledge of this stuff? No. But I've met with and talked to a lot of military pilots because of what I do for my "other job" and I can tell you that there are credible military pilots who have definitely seen a lot of odd things over the years. And I also know a very small amount about some of the projects my dad was involved with for the DoD over the years. If what I've been told/overheard is just the tip of the iceberg then I can confidently say that the public is sheltered behind "truth's protective layers". You can take that however you want it. Some of the things you read in science fiction books may not be far from the truth. But then again that is what DARPA does.

Come on man, brush up on those reading skills. Not more than two posts ago, bunk22 clearly stated that he was talking about Qutch.

Is your username Qutch?

I didn't think so.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Actually I can't fathom it going down like that at all. If I were an alien scientist that had a chance to come to Earth, the last planet that I would want to visit is this one. We are a barbaric, gruesome and vindictive species that arrogantly deems itself the next best thing to have graced this universe...and we are ignorantly willing to wreck our only homeworld just so that we can make an extra $. We just had our worst war merely 69 years ago wherein 20 million people were slaughtered for a murderous madman's sake. Yup, that definitely sounds like a lifeform that I would want to speak with. I can just see it now...alien spaceship lands in some major city...then some religious gun-toting whacko shoots the aliens and starts an interstellar incident.

I can't really disagree with any of this. But, I also think any intelligent race out there probably wouldn't be much different than us. Which is why I subscribe to Hawking's beliefs on non-communication with alien life. I firmly believe that with intelligence comes a desire for power, resources, territory, etc. I don't think we'll ever evolve out of this, and in fact, we'll probably end up destroying ourselves because of it. Only a matter of time. I believe any other alien cultures would have a similar disposition and suffer the same fate. Maybe some of them could survive long enough to explore the vast reaches of space, but probably not many. And for the ones that did, I'm sure you wouldn't want to come into contact with them. The technology and weaponry that they would have would have to be absolutely unimaginable. I say ignore them and leave them to their corner of the galaxy. Let some other primitive civilization in another solar system send out signals alerting the advanced aliens to their presence. But I don't want anything to do with us doing it.

I hope I'm not making a strawman argument, but I don't grasp your meaning here. Are you saying that interstellar travel is impossible because aliens haven't yet been to Earth?

I'm not saying that it's impossible, but I am saying that it makes it unlikely that there are hordes of intelligent alien civilizations out there, as so many people want to believe. If the galaxy was truly teaming with life, and faster-than-light travel was possible, then I think real contact would have been made with multiple alien races millennia ago.

As for alien abductions, I think it's obvious that they should fall within the same "genre" as ghosts and Big Foot. There isn't even remotely one shred of evidence for it.

Agreed. But lots of people believe this nonsense. Even had a pilot at my last airline who was absolutely convinced that he was regularly abducted by aliens. I don't think he was lying; I think he was probably mentally ill, or possibly suffered from sleep paralysis or some other disorder that has been linked with the abduction phenomenon, but he's just one of many people who take this stuff very seriously.

 

[chrisreedrules]

Come on man, brush up on those reading skills. Not more than two posts ago, bunk22 clearly stated that he was talking about Qutch.

Is your username Qutch?

I didn't think so.

I've been glancing at the board in between writing a lesson plan for a student tomorrow and searching for reference for an Oregon ANG F-15 for work... Sorry if I missed something. No harm no foul.

 

[Apophis]

I've been glancing at the board in between writing a lesson plan for a student tomorrow and searching for reference for an Oregon ANG F-15 for work... Sorry if I missed something. No harm no foul.

Noted.