U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Routes

[typhoonpilot]

Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

I just wrote a long detailed response to this thread and then it evaporated into thin air :banghead:.

Maybe I'll feel inspired again later, but the short version is that 48 hour layovers after a 16+ hour block flight is the bare minimum. 24 hours is not enough to recover from a 20-22 hour day.

Also transcon turn, done during daytime hours, is a great idea. UAL used to do HNL turns from the west coast in the DC-10 days and those crews loved it. Eight days of work per month. Can't beat that lifestyle. And it's not the least bit dangerous compared to the last leg of a 16 hour multiple leg duty day in the north east. You'd be looking at 12-13 hours duty and only two legs. I do it all the time to Istanbul and Dhaka and it's fine. The key is that it has to be between about 9am and 1am.


Typhoonpilot

 

[falconvalley]

Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

This has nothing to do with representation or jumpseating. It has to do with flying unsafe and knowingly breaking a FAR.

Flying from JFK to OAK to JFK without rest is dangerous.

It has everything to do with it when you have large groups of people buying into that crap. One or two folks is one thing, but to have a pilot group supporting it by doing a study or whatever the heck it was...

 

[Velocipede]

Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

It has everything to do with it when you have large groups of people buying into that crap. One or two folks is one thing, but to have a pilot group supporting it by doing a study or whatever the heck it was...

No it doesn't. It has to do with the regs, pure and simple.

 

[skydog]

Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

The thing that gripes me about the JetBlue things is not that they exceeded 8 hours, but the fact that apparently the experiment was approved by some lower-level FAA people, but when the upper level FAA people found out about it they tried to hang it on the company.

That said, I don't see anything wrong with experimenting with increased flight time limitations, as long as the experiments are conducted safely. How else are you supposed to gain knowledge about what works and doesn't work?

 

[derg]

Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

It's unprofessional to experiment with revenue passengers onboard.

 

[amorris311]

Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

i agree with above.

 

[Polar742]

Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

It's unprofessional to experiment with revenue passengers onboard.

No doubt. I'm sure a protocol for validation could be developed if you REALLY wanted to get it done. I'm postitive said protocol would not include revenue flights.

 

[typhoonpilot]

Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

That said, I don't see anything wrong with experimenting with increased flight time limitations, as long as the experiments are conducted safely. How else are you supposed to gain knowledge about what works and doesn't work?

It's not an experiment. A transcon turn with two pilots would fit within the existing European flight and duty time limitations. European flight and duty time limitations are far superior to the FARs in almost every respect. They account for start time of duty; whether or not one is acclimatized to the time zone; number of legs to be flown; and length of preceeding rest. A two leg day started between 0800 and 1259 would have a maximum permissable duty time of 13 hours and 15 minutes.

The European regs focus a lot more on the duty time than the flight time and that really is a key. Flights equivalent to a transcon turn happen all over the world on a daily basis and are not a safety concern.

It's actually quite confusing why pilots in the USA are against it if properly implemented. It's a win-win situation. It's great for the pilots because they'll have more time off at home on a monthly basis and it's great for the company as they save on crew hotels and other crewing costs.



Typhoonpilot

 

[falconvalley]

Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

No it doesn't. It has to do with the regs, pure and simple.

I think you guys are confused by one thing I said. What I meant was don't bring up the transcon stuff with the JB guys. For example, telling them that organizing with ALPA is a great thing for them rather then debating with them about work rules. I'm not trying to debate the appropriateness or usefullness of experimenting that way. I agree it's not the best of moves.

This is exactly what I've been saying all along. Velo, you think I'm debating with you when I'm actually siding with you on something. There's a difference between straight up violating an FAR and doing something that might not be safe in an experiment. I wouldn't have done either in those circumstances, but there IS a difference.