U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Routes

mpenguin1

Well-Known Member
Bucking opposition from U.S. airlines, federal regulators have issued rules aimed at reducing the hazards of pilot fatigue during the longest international flights.

After 18 months of debate between some airline officials and the Federal Aviation Administration, the agency intends to impose tougher crew-rest requirements and other safety measures on flights operated by AMR Corp.'s American Airlines and Continental Airlines Inc. between the U.S. and India. Over time, the rules are designed to apply to all U.S. carriers flying so-called ultra-long-range flights, which can last 16 hours or longer.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122671908811230673.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
 

C150J

Well-Known Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

Good start. However, we still have regional crews executing six departure/approach phases a day in consistently congested airspace and altitudes that put them IN the weather, not above it. This is NOT to demean the importance of of these regs for the ULR boys, just an emphasis on the desperate need for similar regulation domestically.
 

BajtheJino

I'm looking at you.
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

I think that the tougher rules for the long range stuff is fine but lets not get into the game of tougher rules for regional flying. Pay is low enough as it is, you start imposing shorter days and you'll see pay drop even more.
 

400A

New Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

I think that the tougher rules for the long range stuff is fine but lets not get into the game of tougher rules for regional flying. Pay is low enough as it is, you start imposing shorter days and you'll see pay drop even more.
The quest for higher pay should never be at the expense of safety.
 

Polar742

All the responsibility none of the authority
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

It's good to see changes possibly coming to our outdated rest requirements. Granted it's not the sweeping changes that we need, but it's a start. Hopefully, there will be changes implemented for Domestic rules as well.

I can't wait to read the rule. Then find out how the game will be played.
 

OldTownPilot

Well-Known Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

5 bucks I'll hear about some 777 CAs complaining about reduced productivity when dad gets back from his trip thursday.:banghead:

Its pretty well known that 24 hour rest periods are the worst for circadian rhythms. You are better off with a 15 hour layover than a 24 hour one. And while 48 hour layovers are better than 24 hour layovers, there is still the issue of a day/night flop, so a 36 hour layover is better.

FYI, CAL is scheduled with a 24:30 layover right now. looks something like this:

1 777 48 EWR BOM 2020 2140 14:50 S 14:50 16:20 24:30 DO

3 77C 49 BOM EWR 2340 0525 16:15 S 16:15 17:45 IN
TOTAL CR: 31:05 TOTAL BLK: 31:05 TAFB: 58:35
 

mpenguin1

Well-Known Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

5 bucks I'll hear about some 777 CAs complaining about reduced productivity when dad gets back from his trip thursday.:banghead:

Its pretty well known that 24 hour rest periods are the worst for circadian rhythms. You are better off with a 15 hour layover than a 24 hour one. And while 48 hour layovers are better than 24 hour layovers, there is still the issue of a day/night flop, so a 36 hour layover is better.
I was thinking the same thing, 48 hours off after going 16 hours, seems overkill
 

OldTownPilot

Well-Known Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

Eh, dad does 24 hours off in Europe after flying over there al the time, and I've been on a few 24 hour trips with him. I don't know if you underestimate the brutalness of a circadian flop, but you would be better off with a 14-15 hour layover than a 24 hour layover even after working for 20 hours straight. The weird thing with these flights, is that the flight in itself contains a circadian flop, being almost 20 hours in length, so to have a flop on the airplane, then another flop on the layover and another on the return home, is torture on the body.
 

germb747

Well-Known Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

I don't know if you underestimate the brutalness of a circadian flop, but you would be better off with a 14-15 hour layover than a 24 hour layover even after working for 20 hours straight. The weird thing with these flights, is that the flight in itself contains a circadian flop, being almost 20 hours in length, so to have a flop on the airplane, then another flop on the layover and another on the return home, is torture on the body.
:yeahthat:
 

mpenguin1

Well-Known Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

Eh, dad does 24 hours off in Europe after flying over there al the time, and I've been on a few 24 hour trips with him. I don't know if you underestimate the brutalness of a circadian flop, but you would be better off with a 14-15 hour layover than a 24 hour layover even after working for 20 hours straight. The weird thing with these flights, is that the flight in itself contains a circadian flop, being almost 20 hours in length, so to have a flop on the airplane, then another flop on the layover and another on the return home, is torture on the body.
For the record, I was agreeing with you;)
 

staplegun

Well-Known Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

I'm in Bombay right now after a 20+ hour duty day.

I've done both a 24-hour and 48-hour layover here, and let me tell you - there is no debate as far as I'm concerned.

24 hours is just not enough time after an extended duty day to turn around and go back with a 17:55 block day.

That extra 24 hours makes a big difference.

I understand the argument for a 24-hour layover, but the science of sleep management supports the longer layover.

Pilots are the last ones who should be consulted on this because we all obviously want max hours on duty so we have more time off. Who wouldn't want 9 days @ 90+ hours vs. 12 days @ 90+ hours.

The question becomes how do you feel on that approach to CAT III minumims back at home base after only 24 hours of layover and 34 hours of flying in the last 58 hours?

The Continental & AMR guys can bitch all they want - 48 hour layovers are safer.




Kevin
 

Velocipede

New Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

The quest for higher pay should never be at the expense of safety.
Correct. It still gripes me that the B6 boys tried to torpedo the 8 hour rule so they could do transcon turns. GMAFB!

24 hours is just not enough time after an extended duty day to turn around and go back with a 17:55 block day.

That extra 24 hours makes a big difference.

The Continental & AMR guys can bitch all they want - 48 hour layovers are safer.
Again, right as rain. In the Navy we were allowed to be scheduled 18 hour crew days. I'll never forget the time we flew TransPac in one crew day. Atsugi to Midway. Refuel. Midway to Honolulu. Clear customs at midnight, refuel. Honolulu to San Diego. In a DC-9!

18 hour layover and then San Diego to Salina, KS. Refuel. Salina to Norfolk.

I seriously thought I was going to die after that one.
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

Correct. It still gripes me that the B6 boys tried to torpedo the 8 hour rule so they could do transcon turns. GMAFB!

I was riding shotgun on American a few weeks ago and the Captain went ballistic when this was brought up in conversation, that they did that.

For everyone out there, it is NOT only you who shares these views.
 

falconvalley

Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

Correct. It still gripes me that the B6 boys tried to torpedo the 8 hour rule so they could do transcon turns. GMAFB!



Again, right as rain. In the Navy we were allowed to be scheduled 18 hour crew days. I'll never forget the time we flew TransPac in one crew day. Atsugi to Midway. Refuel. Midway to Honolulu. Clear customs at midnight, refuel. Honolulu to San Diego. In a DC-9!

18 hour layover and then San Diego to Salina, KS. Refuel. Salina to Norfolk.

I seriously thought I was going to die after that one.
I was riding shotgun on American a few weeks ago and the Captain went ballistic when this was brought up in conversation, that they did that.

For everyone out there, it is NOT only you who shares these views.
Well, you guys have an opportunity to educate some people who might be willing to listen. This may have been a case of some people drinking the KoolAid and not even realizing it. Perfect opportunity to open a jumpseat and go with it. I don't mean telling them they're wrong for that transcon crap. I mean telling them how good it is that they're thinking about organizing under ALPA.
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

This has nothing to do with representation or jumpseating. It has to do with flying unsafe and knowingly breaking a FAR.

Flying from JFK to OAK to JFK without rest is dangerous.
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

24hr layovers, while they sound like a dream to those doing 9 hour layovers are actually very hard and you really have to find a way to manage drowsiness.

If you hit Western Europe and then you sleep too much once you get in, you're not going to sleep that evening at all. But if you sleep a couple/three hours when you get in, you can spend most of the next day relatively tired and drag yourself around until about 10 or 11pm, and then get about 7 hours of sleep if you're really lucky. Find a light breakfast, then fly back to the US.

I don't fly ULH but I'm certainly interested in what the rule is going to say.
 

Bandit_Driver

Gold Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

From what I have read this looks like a move in the right direction. As others said the Domestic side needs to get fixed. They also really need to look at 121 Suppliemental. Having crews on a crew on call 24/7 with no specified duty day starting until called is dangerous. Up all day, get called out out for 16 hours or more if international. There have been times when I have been with crewmwmbers that have been up for 26+ hours. That just isn't right and really dangerous...
 

Gonzo

Well-Known Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

Correct. It still gripes me that the B6 boys tried to torpedo the 8 hour rule so they could do transcon turns. GMAFB!
I was riding shotgun on American a few weeks ago and the Captain went ballistic when this was brought up in conversation, that they did that.

For everyone out there, it is NOT only you who shares these views.
I have had a few Delta guys tell me they wish they could do transcon turns (with rules like no back side of the clock flying) their point was two legs 10hrs of flying with a 12hr duty day is better then 4-6 legs 7hrs of flying with a 14hr duty day.
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
Re: U.S. to Impose Tougher Rules for Pilot Rest on Long Rout

They probably want to do that to maximize days off as well.
 

Nick

Well-Known Member
International turns

I have had a few Delta guys tell me they wish they could do transcon turns (with rules like no back side of the clock flying) their point was two legs 10hrs of flying with a 12hr duty day is better then 4-6 legs 7hrs of flying with a 14hr duty day.
Where I used to have my crashpad it was all Continental pilots and I saw some great schedules for day trips that they'd get doing just this, but not domestic of course.

The main difference, which really changes everything, is that the Aruba, Bonaire, St. Maarten, and other daytrips out of EWR blocking 9 or 10 hours have three pilots -- and the break is in first class.

If the jetBlue pilots could get the rest rules changed so that a third pilot could be used on a domestic transcon turn I think the situation would be much safer. But until then, why would anyone want to do that much flying without a break?
 
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