U.S. Airways

Kingair, I agree with you. In fact you arguable display a higher level of critical thinking than a college grad by questioning how a 50k piece of paper makes you more qualified for being a pilot.

Pilots are blue collar machine operators who think they are very smart, but the real reason that majors require a degree is that there are probably 10 applicants for every 1 job. If being a pilot was an in demand career, they would only care if you knew just enough to meet FAA minimums and wouldn't care one bit about somebodys utah valley state college certificate.
 
Cav said:
If a degree were a requirement, the profession would be much better off.
Click to expand...

I have to say, I strongly disagree. I agree that we, as an industry, should be more selective; but, a degree is just a lazy option with zero credibility. The answer, just like international legacy carriers and air forces do, is aptitude testing - testing skills which are relevant - coordination, multi-tasking, memory, reflexes, decision making, mental arithmetic, problem solving, the list goes on. Not to sound facetious here, or denigrate anyone's efforts, but the way that many degree system works is a joke. Too many of them require bugger all dedication and commitment. Yet, to the laziest HR departments, it is worth more than aviation experience.

Anyhow, thankfully, it isn't a hard barrier. I don't have a degree, but the office is a triple. I may get one, purely for self interest.
 
Hey to all you kids out there reading in internet land, take note that everybody in this thread who says degrees are worthless don't have them, and all the mainline pilots in this thread say they're worthwhile.

Consider who has moved on in this career and take that into consideration in the direction you want to move in; the direction of those that man up and succeed, or those that make excuses and try to get by on the minimum possible. Are you somebody that wins at all costs, or are you a hack?
 
JTrain,

The problem lies in the system. Now, degrees are used as a means of early selection. This is in lieu of aptitude testing. I know who I'd rather have sat beside me.

The guy who flew Jaguars in the RAF without a degree, or the CRJ pilot with a degree in underwater basket weaving from a 4th rate online school..?

Its nothing to do with 'getting by on the minimum possible', it's about focusing your efforts. I think the system has it wrong. We are in a technical profession, not an academic one. My wife has an undergrad degree, JD and Masters in tax. She's a tax lawyer. There - it makes sense.

I'm a pilot. I've learnt to fly a number of aircraft. I hold professional flying licenses in 4 countries. I do not have a degree in carpet coloring. My required skill set is different. My airline selected me after 2 days of aptitude testing, 4 interviews and several group interactive exercises.

It's the way air forces and legacies the world over do it. It just takes too much effort and money for US majors implement and conduct.
 
Papoo said:
JTrain,

The problem lies in the system. Now, degrees are used as a means of early selection. This is in lieu of aptitude testing. I know who I'd rather have sat beside me.
Click to expand...

I doubt you do hiring; you'd likely need a degree to get that position.

The guy who flew Jaguars in the RAF without a degree, or the CRJ pilot with a degree in underwater basket weaving from a 4th rate online school..?
Click to expand...

Don't know too many Brits applying to U.S. mainline carriers, though I've been surprised before.

In the United States system an officer (necessary to be a pilot) WILL have an undergraduate degree at the very least, and many I've met have completed graduate work also.

Remember, win at all costs, or hack.
 
jtrain609 said:
I doubt you do hiring; you'd likely need a degree to get that position.



Don't know too many Brits applying to U.S. mainline carriers, though I've been surprised before.

In the United States system an officer (necessary to be a pilot) WILL have an undergraduate degree at the very least, and many I've met have completed graduate work also.

Remember, win at all costs, or hack.
Click to expand...

Correct, I don't do hiring. I do fly a B777 without a degree, though.

My point isn't about what you or I need to get there. I know that in the US, you're unlikely to get a place at a major without a degree. My point is the fact that I believe that this method of selection is flawed.

The US military pilots get a degree, yes, but they are in the minority. UK/Australian/countless other equally competent military operators do not require a degree. Again, I flew helicopters in the Royal Navy.

This "win or hack" vernacular is lost on me. Regardless, I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say. I know that you'll probably need a degree to get into a US major. However, I don't find this to be a diligent or credible means of qualifying anything. Just something in the system that we (the industry) have made so.
 
So you're a former RAF pilot, probably work for Speedbird now eh?

Fantastic.

Let's get on equal footing here, because we're not talking about the same issues. Do you live in the States or in the U.K., do you fly for a U.S. carrier or Speedbird, and finally were you educated in the U.K. or the United States?

Without that I'm talking about elephants and your'e talking about taking a trip to the moon.
 
Papoo said:
This "win or hack" vernacular is lost on me. Regardless.
Click to expand...

Don't worry, that's jtrains MO. He belittles people until they give up. It's akin to fighting with a two year old with his hands over his ears going "la, la, la".
 
I'm changing my philosophy for the sake of those looking for jobs in a tough job market.

Yeah, you're right. DON'T get the degree. Airlines say they want things like degrees and Restricted Radiotelephone Licenses but what in the world do they know? I know a guy who knows a guy who is a FDX MD11 captain without either.

Forget it! It's pointless! Waste of time and HR has time to look for that diamond in the rough that doesn't meet the competitive minimums.

(Job seekers can thank me by purchasing me a beer at a later date).
 
Maybe it's the inadequate communication or the lack of pictures and diagrams, but the overall message isn't to say that people shouldn't get a degree, it's to criticize the current system. With the way that things are set up right now, I think that it's safe to say that getting a degree is the way to go, hence the reason why I'm in college.

I don't know, some of us like to step away from Dancing With the Stars and Keeping Up With the Kardashians to give ourselves some room to use our brains and, uh... think. :)
 
Degreees are bad. Don't get one! :)

That's just jealousy from those of us who wasted four years beer drinking and chasing women in college that you have a four year lead on the rest of us college-types.

Hell, don't you just want to fly airplanes anyway? :)

(Some of you guys owe me beer for pulling another pilot out of the applicant pool! :))
 
coa787 said:
Maybe it's the inadequate communication or the lack of pictures and diagrams, but the overall message isn't to say that people shouldn't get a degree, it's to criticize the current system. With the way that things are set up right now, I think that it's safe to say that getting a degree is the way to go, hence the reason why I'm in college.
Click to expand...

I think you could honestly say that about any job/career requiring a degree though. I am working in the profession I went to school for and I would have been better served, as would the company, had I just gone to a few Excel classes. They could have paid me less since there would have been more applicants and I could have saved the money I spent on the degree.
 
Hootie said:
Airline careers have zero correlation with anything outside of random chance. So it makes the most sense to buy low and sell high and not vice versa. Usair was the place to be 30 years ago, and Southwest was a place for rejects. If Usair had domiciles where I wanted to live I would apply there, but I would never apply to Southwest. The only predictable occurance at the airlines is cycles of good and terrible times.
Click to expand...

There's an enormous amount of logic to this line of thought.

Think of where both SWA and FEDEX were in the 80s vs all of the other legacy carriers. There's a chance that 20 years from now, SWA and FEDEX will have gone the way of Pan Am and Braniff, and Virgin America or JetBlue or Allegiant will be a super power.

The gamble at US Airways is that the pilot list is senior enough that in 20 years most of the people in the "piss and vinegar" seniority dispute will be gone and the company will be in a much better place. The same logic says to apply at American, too, because of the age of their list.

It's a HUGE gamble...but, then again, the "buy low, sell high" strategy of employment is just as valid (or invalid) of a strategy as any other. Sort of like roulette betting "strategies".
 
Papoo said:
I have to say, I strongly disagree. I agree that we, as an industry, should be more selective; but, a degree is just a lazy option with zero credibility. The answer, just like international legacy carriers and air forces do, is aptitude testing - testing skills which are relevant - coordination, multi-tasking, memory, reflexes, decision making, mental arithmetic, problem solving, the list goes on. Not to sound facetious here, or denigrate anyone's efforts, but the way that many degree system works is a joke. Too many of them require bugger all dedication and commitment. Yet, to the laziest HR departments, it is worth more than aviation experience.

Anyhow, thankfully, it isn't a hard barrier. I don't have a degree, but the office is a triple. I may get one, purely for self interest.
Click to expand...

Many if not most legacy carriers are conducting the tests you mention in their interviews. Some are conducting them prior to getting the interview. I know United did back when they were hiring. It's not realistic to compare US airline hiring to foreign carrier hiring. It's my understanding that post high school education in Europe and many parts of the world is different than the US. Not superior, not inferior, just different...much more trade oriented. Furthermore, just from a job applicant pool stand point the US carriers need more ability to narrow the number of applicants. I know I'm speaking in broad generalities and the above doesn't apply to all carriers.

To those younger pilots reading this thread, I've been to two legacy interviews in the past 4 years and I was invited to a low cost carrier interview after going to their open house which I later turned down. There wasn't a single applicant at any of these three events that didn't have a degree. Arguing about a degree's relevance is pointless. The companies and their recruiters want them, period. We might as well be arguing over whether or not a PPL helps you fly 777 in the US.
 
Cav said:
Many if not most legacy carriers are conducting the tests you mention in their interviews. Arguing about a degree's relevance is pointless. The companies and their recruiters want them, period. We might as well be arguing over whether or not a PPL helps you fly 777 in the US.
Click to expand...

Well that's great to see, regarding aptitude testing. I'm sorry for my 'pointless' post. I was merely voicing an opinion which differs from yours. We both agree that we need tighter requirements. My suggestion is to demand higher aptitude scores, because I think it is more relevant - it is determining the level at which one holds the required skill set. Legacy carriers want degrees - because it is much cheaper for them to slash numbers that way. I think that increasing the 'pass level' of these tests would produce a better caliber of successful applicant, rather than a degree.

Given this is, after all, a debate, I don't think my view is pointless, because I'm not suggesting that major carriers don't want degrees. It is merely an observation and opinion on the reasoning for it, and what I think is a better suggestion. Sadly, it requires more manpower and more cash to operate this way.

Ho hum.
 
If you want to spend your life figuring out how to get where you think you want to be, go to a puppymill. If you want to spend your life reflecting on who you actually want to be, go to a real college.

There's a notion abroad (in the US, at least) that preparing every student for College is somehow a waste, or inappropriate. Now, of course, the truth is that we don't even nearly prepare the vast majority of kids for genuine Higher Learning, but I, myself, think that's a Bad Thing. There's an unspoken assumption when people say "yeah, but we NEED electricians, plumbers, etc". What they're not saying is "We need uneducated electricans, plumbers, parking attendants, etc". Now just why do you suppose that "we" would really NEED anyone to be ignorant? Here's a hint: It's not for the benefit of people who AREN'T the ones making the suppositions about how much anyone "needs" to know. Yeah, someone has to fix the lights and the plumbing, sure. But fixing lights, plumbing, or even parking cars is not in any way incompatible with learning about the vast swath of human history, and even, God Forbid, drawing some conclusions about it. NO MORE SERFS, EVER.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top