Twin Training in my own plane?

chibrian79

New Member
Howdy all. I have some questions that I was hoping a few of your could help me answer. I have my Private and I have been considering going to ATP and doing the career pilot program to get my ratings - a.) because I can finance a portion of the training and b.) I like the idea of doing all my training in a multi-engine aircraft. I was talking with a friend of mine who is a professional pilot and he made a suggestion that sounded quite interesting -- I hadn't really given it much thought. He suggested buying a safe, cheap twin (in the 50-60,000 range), keeping it for about a year and knocking out all my ratings with an instructor as well as building some time. He also suggested the idea of lease back to a flight school.

I'm curious to get some input on this. Would I even be able to get insurance? How much would insurance cost (I know this probably differs greatly depending on a number of things -- I only have about 110 hours TT -- but I'm just looking for an approximate range)? I would think I'd be able to get a CFI that would love to teach me for a pretty affordable rate.

As I like checking all angles, I figured this would be worth investigating... Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Brian Johnson
 
He suggested buying a safe, cheap twin (in the 50-60,000 range), keeping it for about a year and knocking out all my ratings with an instructor as well as building some time.

I deal mostly with high-end singles, but "cheap" and "twin" aren't often used in the same sentence! :) Finding something safe, equiped for IFR, and not requiring major maintenance in the very near future might be tough in that price range . . .
 
chibrian79 said:
Howdy all. I have some questions that I was hoping a few of your could help me answer. I have my Private and I have been considering going to ATP and doing the career pilot program to get my ratings - a.) because I can finance a portion of the training and b.) I like the idea of doing all my training in a multi-engine aircraft. I was talking with a friend of mine who is a professional pilot and he made a suggestion that sounded quite interesting -- I hadn't really given it much thought. He suggested buying a safe, cheap twin (in the 50-60,000 range), keeping it for about a year and knocking out all my ratings with an instructor as well as building some time. He also suggested the idea of lease back to a flight school.

I'm curious to get some input on this. Would I even be able to get insurance? How much would insurance cost (I know this probably differs greatly depending on a number of things -- I only have about 110 hours TT -- but I'm just looking for an approximate range)? I would think I'd be able to get a CFI that would love to teach me for a pretty affordable rate.

As I like checking all angles, I figured this would be worth investigating... Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Brian Johnson

The monthly fixed costs alone would make it a bad idea. It would be way better to just sign up for ATP.

P.S. - That price range you quoted for a nice twin should be up to $65,000 or more at least. You'd find a nice twin for 65 or less if you're lucky
 
Welcom to JC!
I agree with everyone else on this. I was looking into doing the same thing about six months ago (instead of renting). But, I ended up renting and taking lessons at the local FBO for several reasons. I found it pretty difficult trying to find a twin in that price range and even if you did, you would have to have a pretty big chunk of change laying around for the maint. you will encounter. There were just too many variables (because I had a limited amount of money to spend). Good Luck with everything!!!
Happy Turkey Day!
 
We bought a twin, did all my training and some time building in it and now we've put it up for sale. It's do-able but it's not necessarily cheaper.

I have 500 Multi, btw and a 1,000TT.

chibrian79 said:
Howdy all. I have some questions that I was hoping a few of your could help me answer. I have my Private and I have been considering going to ATP and doing the career pilot program to get my ratings - a.) because I can finance a portion of the training and b.) I like the idea of doing all my training in a multi-engine aircraft. I was talking with a friend of mine who is a professional pilot and he made a suggestion that sounded quite interesting -- I hadn't really given it much thought. He suggested buying a safe, cheap twin (in the 50-60,000 range), keeping it for about a year and knocking out all my ratings with an instructor as well as building some time. He also suggested the idea of lease back to a flight school.

I'm curious to get some input on this. Would I even be able to get insurance? How much would insurance cost (I know this probably differs greatly depending on a number of things -- I only have about 110 hours TT -- but I'm just looking for an approximate range)? I would think I'd be able to get a CFI that would love to teach me for a pretty affordable rate.

As I like checking all angles, I figured this would be worth investigating... Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Happy Thanksgiving!

Brian Johnson
 
I looked around on trade a plane a month or two ago, and it looked like you could get a fairly decent 310 or an apache in the 65-75000 range, but isn't there a spar AD on the 310? and the apaches are just plain OLD.
I wouldn't think someone like ATP would be interested in a leaseback on something that old, since they're probably flying a fleet of new seminoles (or something, havne't looked)
but what about your local FBO, what about a flying club? what about selling shares in the airplane to 3 or 4 other people? All ways to cut the costs and let you fly your own airplane. Heck even if you can cut the Mx expense it would be a help.
 
Thanks!

Thank you everyone for all the responses. It sounds like most people say it's not necessarily going to save me any money... Pilot602 - sounds like you did a decent job with it, especially with the time you accumulated.

Maybe I should go to a local FBO, scoobs, but I've given it a lot of thought and with the benefit of having 140 hours of twin engine time at the completion of the program, along with all my certificates, I think I'll be much better off. The flight instructor that I got my private with (at a "local" FBO) recommended ATP for my particular situation. It works well for my scheduling needs and will get me into a flight instructor position (hopefully) once I complete my training. Besides, I don't want to be one of those instructors that waits and waits to get twin time -- it's not that I have any problem working as a CFI -- I'm actually looking forward to it -- but I want to have the option of getting a freight job once I have the TT...

So... Everyone who thinks I'm crazy or has a little advice for me, feel free to reply!

Thanks.

Brian
 
I had a buddy who bought an old Apache to free lance instruct in. Used that method to build multi time....while he was going to college and 20 years old. He'd be at Delta now if he hadn't been furloughed. I'm a big believer aircraft ownership as a viable way to build time, instruct, and get experience. Very few at this website own airplanes and yet the vast majority think it's a bad idea. I couldn't disagree more.

The cost of your insurance will be based on your CFI's experience, not yours, since you aren't rated. Once you are rated to solo, it will be based on you. Apache's and older Aztec's can be had for less than 50K and can burn auto fuel. Yeah, they are old but I got a 1946 Luscombe that is in better shape, and much lower time, then my 1978 Cessna 152. The previous owner took great care of it. You just have to find the right one.

The risk involved with aircraft ownership is high. This is a risk you don't have to worry about if you go to ATP or rent. At the same time, I think it's an acceptable risk and one that is likely to save you money in the long run. I can say, without a doubt, had I bought a Cessna 150 when I had 110 hours, I'd have saved a LOT of money in the long run. A Cessna 150 is a different story than a light twin but the lack of multi time cost me a couple years of career progression....multi time is important.

Anyhow, Pilot 602 is the guy that did it. I'd say he's the expert.
 
All bring up valid points but something you might want to consider is the ins that a place like ATP has that you would not be able to get if you own your own plane. They do have deals with regionals that can get the lower hour mins reduced and get you into the right seat of a regional quicker than doing it on your own.
 
I'll throw this out there by quoting a post I put up on a different forum, but the topic is close enough that this might be helpful.
I can chip in with a little bit of information, hopefully pertinent. I was 1/2 owner of a Twin Comanche until the end of 2002. We split normal expenses in two ways, fixed and variable.

The fixed expenses were a total of $410 per month each, $820 total. The breakdown was: $200 hanger, $220 insurance, and $400 maintenance fund.

Variable costs were charged at $85 per flight hour. $50 for fuel, $30 engine reserve fund, and $5 for oil change (including a couple of recurring AD's at each oil change interval).

Over a three or four year period those budgeted numbers turned out to be fairly accurate, with plane operation typically in the 150 hour per year range. With fixed costs divided over that 150 hours, total operating cost was approximately $150 per hour.

The maintenance fund covered the cost of the annual inspection (including the usual small ticket items that cropped up), as well as minor items throughout the year. One year we ran over on the annual cost when we replaced the windshield, and we just anteed up 50% each for the overage.

A couple of caveats regarding our costs - this plane was in exceptional condition, and so most high cost items had been taken care of in the recent past. The panel and interior had been redone by the previous owner, and the paint done by my partner before I bought in to the plane. (Those costs don't show up in our operating budget, but of course were reflected in both the purchase and selling prices.) Kalamazoo Aircraft was our primary maintenance facility, and they did a very good job working with us to keep the aircraft in tip-top shape at a reasonable (relative, of course) cost. My partner in the aircraft was chief pilot for a corporate operator, and their head mechanic often worked with us on small jobs, such as oil changes, which certainly helped reduce our operating costs. Another mitigating factor was the economical operation of the Twinkie. We typically flight planned at 65% power, 155 - 160 knots true, and 15 gph total fuel burn.
I need to emphasize some things. Make sure that you budget some money for a very thorough pre-buy inspection. Use a mechanic that has no interest in the buyer's side of the negotiation. If you don't know a mechanic personally, get recommendations for one from people that you know. Twins are notorious for being cheap to buy, but very, very expensive to get into safe flying condition, and expensive to maintain. There are many, many aircraft out there that have not been properly maintained, and the list of deferred items can add huge amounts to your initial costs. It is not at all unusual to see people budget 50% to 100% of their initial purchase price in the first annual inspection. Read that again - you could easily spend another $60,000 on your new-to-you $60,000 plane just to get it safely in the air. It is often much smarter to spend more money up front for an airframe that is in great shape, rather than buy a "budget" bird. Caveat emptor!

When you are analysing the cost of a plane, do not ignore the engine overhaul cost, or the "cost of money".

Engine overhaul cost will affect you in one of two ways:
1. You will have to overhaul an engine (or two) and it is a large cost all at once that you must have budgeted for.
2. If you sell the plane before doing any overhauls, the hours that you have put on the plane will reduce the value of the plane because of less hours available before the overhaul comes due. Buyers factor this into the value of the plane, so you should calculate it as a cost of ownership.
You will pay for the hours you put on the engines one way or another!

The "cost of money" is another very real expense that many people ignore, to their regret. This is the cost of the interest on a loan, if you take one out, or it is the unrealized money-making potential that your dollars could have been making for you if they were not tied up in an aircraft. Note that my example above does not include this cost, and needs to be added to get the true total cost of ownership. This cost could be realistically assumed to add $20 to $40 per operating hour.

With those things being said, and keeping in mind that my example above was based on costs from 3 or 4 years ago, I would not be at all suprised to see real world costs for an economical light twin in the $175 to $225 dollars per flight hour range. Suddenly those rates from Air-Ben or Skymates start to make more sense when you figure that they can spread their fixed costs out over many, many more operating hours than a single owner could possibly do.

Do not, ever, count on appreciation of aircraft value. Sometimes aircraft values go up, sometimes they go down. Do not bet your financial calculations on values going up.

All of that said, I think that right now there is a pretty good buyer's market for aircraft in general, and twins in particular (haven't been watching real close lately, though). There are probably some pretty good values out there right now, but do your homework. And keep in mind that it may very well be a "buyer's market" when you go to sell your bird as well!


(edit to add: also keep in mind that the insurance rates we paid were based on higher experience levels than you'll see as a newly minted multi-pilot. Your rates could be much, much higher. Get a quote!)
 
Philip said:
I hope he chimes in. I'm curious how much time he got out of it, if the airplane paid for itself etc.

I already chimed in. :)

We bought the Apache 5 years ago for a fair price. For it's Total Airframe Time it was a bargain. I used it from after my initial private and 42 total time to about 500+ total time when I started instructing at the school I got my instructors from. We found a school who allowed their instructors to fly in privately owned aircraft and we also had the maintenance done at this FBO as well. My brother also used the aircraft for his flying.

Together, with the purchase of the aircraft included we still spent less (buying an aircraft and getting two pilots up to some decent hours) than the "Zero time-CFI+ RJ program" at ATP ($91,000 some odd dollars) and now we have an aircraft that still has low time and we can sell to recoup a majority of that cost.

Owningan aircraft is great and we'd be keepingthe Apache except that it's just too expensive to keep and not fly. The year I instructed I flew it only 49 hours. So in a few years my brother and I will go partners on a 182 or something simple and cheap(er).
 
Thanks again!

I'm very glad I started this thread. I've gotten more information from all of you than I have been able to get from anyone I've talked to in person. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply in such detail. I'll post at a later date and let you know what I've decided on (I've got an idea but I'm not going to reveal it until I make it happen!)...

Thanks again.

Brian Johnson
 
Here is another good reply off of another forum.



I bought an Apache last summer to do just like you're wanting. Build "cheap" multi time. (if there is such a thing). I too, listened to all the people dog the Apache, and say the 310 was the better way to go. I almost even bought into a partnership on a 310. I had my planes of choice narrowed to the Apache, the 310, and my favorite the Twin Comanche. The Apache offered low purchase price, and low operating costs. The other 2 planes offer one or the other. With the 310 you can purchase one reasonably, but it'll eat you alive with todays fuel prices. The Twin Co. is a really nice plane with low operating costs , and excellent cruise speeds, but you'll be lucky to find one even with 2 timed out engines for less than 60K. Most are 80K and higher. But after about 6 months of searching, I found the perfect Apache for me. Not a cream puff, but also not a neglected pig (like a lot are).

Look for a plane that already has the mods you want done to it. This way the previous owners have paid for the upgrades and not you. There were several things I wanted in an Apache. First, it had to be a 160 hp (why even mess with the 150's), it had to have the new Hartzell Top Props already installed. You really don't want the hassle of the 250 hr AD on the old props. I wanted dual generators or alternators. I wanted the backup electric hydraulic pump. (hand pumping the gear up right after takeoff with an engine failure, is really something I want nothing to do with). I wanted decent working radios, and less than TBO engines. And all that at a reasonable and affordable price. That doesn't make finding a plane very easy, but I did find one eventually.

I found a 58 Apache 160, with alot of the Geronimo mods (extended nose, square tail, hoerner wingtips, dorsal fin, speed slope windshield), 400 hr Top Props, 1300 hr LE, and 400 hr RE, electric hyd. pump, dual alternators, Digital Narco radios, new interior and newer paint for less than 40K. Most people think their Apaches are worth more than they are, so alot of them stay for sale for a long time. I know of a couple that have been for sale for a year and a half. So be sure not to overpay, or you'll never get your money back out of the plane.

As far as maintenance, find an A&P who'll let you do alot of the work yourself. Being able to do my own maintenance is a huge savings. Most of those AD's have already been complied with over the years (but be sure to check this on a prebuy). As far as repetitive AD's, the Apache is no worse than any other plane in my opinion. I also found insurance rates were surprisingly better than I had hoped for. (much better than 310 insurance prices). My yearly premium when I bought the plane (with 700 hr TT, and only 10 hrs of Multi), was $2900 thru AOPA ins. agency. (this will hopefully drop even more now that I have some hrs built up in the plane). Avemco quoted me at over $4000.

I fly everywhere at 55% power, unless I'm going somewhere with a purpose. I average about 14 gal/hr, and I always use Airnav to plan my fuel stops. I also try to find other people looking to build multi time to fly with as much as possible. After everthing is added up, as long as I'm splitting time with another person, I'm building multi engine PIC, in a plane I own, for less than the rental price of a 172.
 
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