Twin Time!

Flying for free is flying for free.

Sure, flight time is a benefit that has a monetary value. The FAA certainly thinks so. (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...iotsJetTeam - (2013) Legal Interpretation.pdf)

We have a professional standard of not flying for free. What is the underlying principle? It is not because you don't receive something of value when you fly for free. On the contrary, if you calculate what the flight time is theoretically worth, it is usually way more than what your paycheck would be. When I turned down unpaid SIC time in a Citation, the daily rate I was requesting was way less than what I would have had to pay out of pocket to buy Citation time that would indeed be valuable to me. Many people in this thread have run some numbers and found that the difference in value between Cherokee and Apache time is more than the $40/hr pay rate. So what's the problem?

The answer is that the principle of not flying for free is based on our collective experience that doing so degrades and corrupts the profession. If we are going to have flying be a true career -- i.e., one where people can support a family, and not just a hobby or side job -- we need to guard and maintain the value of a pilot's time as something that absolutely requires compensation regardless of the side benefits (experience, free food, etc.) to the pilot for doing the flight.

In this case, the fact that you can turn around and say "but it's optional" is a distraction. Think about it - any job is optional. The fact that a single employer is allowing you to switch back and forth between flying for free and flying for hire does not mean that flying for free is somehow not flying for free.

Now, does this mean that the owner of this business is evil, shady, and trying to take advantage of his pilots? Absolutely not. The principle of not flying for free is not intuitive to those outside the profession. (And also not intuitive to many inside the profession.) A well-intentioned, intelligent, and otherwise well-informed person can reasonably conclude that this setup is perfectly advantageous to the pilot group, as discussed above.

So I think the OP and his pilot group should collectively agree not to exercise the option of using the twin to conduct work they are normally paid for in the Cherokee. Renting the twin on their own time at cost is fine, and they should clearly express their gratitude to the employer for providing them that generous option. They should also explain to the owner that they appreciate what he is trying to do with the "free twin time" part of the arrangement and that they respect his intentions. However, they cannot perform professional duties without being compensated in the good, old-fashioned way: with a paycheck.
 
Flying for free is flying for free.

Sure, flight time is a benefit that has a monetary value. The FAA certainly thinks so. (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2013/Howell-PatriotsJetTeam - (2013) Legal Interpretation.pdf)

We have a professional standard of not flying for free. What is the underlying principle? It is not because you don't receive something of value when you fly for free. On the contrary, if you calculate what the flight time is theoretically worth, it is usually way more than what your paycheck would be. When I turned down unpaid SIC time in a Citation, the daily rate I was requesting was way less than what I would have had to pay out of pocket to buy Citation time that would indeed be valuable to me. Many people in this thread have run some numbers and found that the difference in value between Cherokee and Apache time is more than the $40/hr pay rate. So what's the problem?

The answer is that the principle of not flying for free is based on our collective experience that doing so degrades and corrupts the profession. If we are going to have flying be a true career -- i.e., one where people can support a family, and not just a hobby or side job -- we need to guard and maintain the value of a pilot's time as something that absolutely requires compensation regardless of the side benefits (experience, free food, etc.) to the pilot for doing the flight.

In this case, the fact that you can turn around and say "but it's optional" is a distraction. Think about it - any job is optional. The fact that a single employer is allowing you to switch back and forth between flying for free and flying for hire does not mean that flying for free is somehow not flying for free.

Thank you. This is exactly why I can't help but disapprove of flying the Apache for free. You said it much better than I could.
 
My boss went and bought a nice older Apache to put a camera system into solely to allow us (his 6 or 7 pilots) the opportunity to build more twin time. We can use it to fly any of our routes, but the trade-off is no pay, which when I take into account our pay (light years better then a first year (or second year) regional FO), I'm not all that upset about, since we get to choose if we want to fly it or not. Personally I plan on staying in my nice & slow assigned Cherokee 160 for my 7 or 8 hour routes and will fly the twin on the thin routes as long as I've already flown enough in the single. I also plan on doing a lot more fun flying and will be able to use it as it's available and just pay fuel and operating costs. Finally looking at some decent twin time building (I already have 100 mutli PIC, but I'll take every bit I can get!)

/brag

Be careful in that Apache. When you lose one of those engines, the thing flies like about 1/3 of a 172. It's definitely one of those airplanes that engendered the beloved saying about the working engine flying you to the scene of the crash.
 
Flying for free is flying for free.

Sure, flight time is a benefit that has a monetary value. The FAA certainly thinks so. (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2013/Howell-PatriotsJetTeam - (2013) Legal Interpretation.pdf)

We have a professional standard of not flying for free. What is the underlying principle? It is not because you don't receive something of value when you fly for free. On the contrary, if you calculate what the flight time is theoretically worth, it is usually way more than what your paycheck would be. When I turned down unpaid SIC time in a Citation, the daily rate I was requesting was way less than what I would have had to pay out of pocket to buy Citation time that would indeed be valuable to me. Many people in this thread have run some numbers and found that the difference in value between Cherokee and Apache time is more than the $40/hr pay rate. So what's the problem?

The answer is that the principle of not flying for free is based on our collective experience that doing so degrades and corrupts the profession. If we are going to have flying be a true career -- i.e., one where people can support a family, and not just a hobby or side job -- we need to guard and maintain the value of a pilot's time as something that absolutely requires compensation regardless of the side benefits (experience, free food, etc.) to the pilot for doing the flight.

In this case, the fact that you can turn around and say "but it's optional" is a distraction. Think about it - any job is optional. The fact that a single employer is allowing you to switch back and forth between flying for free and flying for hire does not mean that flying for free is somehow not flying for free.

Now, does this mean that the owner of this business is evil, shady, and trying to take advantage of his pilots? Absolutely not. The principle of not flying for free is not intuitive to those outside the profession. (And also not intuitive to many inside the profession.) A well-intentioned, intelligent, and otherwise well-informed person can reasonably conclude that this setup is perfectly advantageous to the pilot group, as discussed above.

So I think the OP and his pilot group should collectively agree not to exercise the option of using the twin to conduct work they are normally paid for in the Cherokee. Renting the twin on their own time at cost is fine, and they should clearly express their gratitude to the employer for providing them that generous option. They should also explain to the owner that they appreciate what he is trying to do with the "free twin time" part of the arrangement and that they respect his intentions. However, they cannot perform professional duties without being compensated in the good, old-fashioned way: with a paycheck.


Clearly you didn't get the new economy memo about us now being serfs. This is SerfAir.
 
Be careful in that Apache. When you lose one of those engines, the thing flies like about 1/3 of a 172. It's definitely one of those airplanes that engendered the beloved saying about the working engine flying you to the scene of the crash.
Same thing with the P-68 I fly. I don't call it a multi, it's a single and a half.
 
Same thing with the P-68 I fly. I don't call it a multi, it's a single and a half.
It's been quite a while since I flew a partenavia, but I don't recall it being that bad. Is that the new one with the Rotaxes?
 
It's been quite a while since I flew a partenavia, but I don't recall it being that bad. Is that the new one with the Rotaxes?
Eh, I wouldn't say it's horrible with just 2 people in it, but then again the only time I did single engine training was 2 people, partial fuel, and out of an airport at sea level and it wasn't anything impressive. The one I'm in now has a gross weight increase to almost 4600 lbs and we're pretty routinely at max gross, so I'd hate to find out what it's like then.
 
While not a twin my employer had a plane used for business and let me use it for personal at no cost. I was never paid to fly the plane actually, just an employee. Same happened with some ME that was block purchased. Some bosses are just good people. 8)
 
I think this is a rare win-win, multi time for (opportunity) cost of $40/hour and I can't see a current employee having much to complain about.

The problem for the owner is when a disgruntled former employee claims he wasn't paid for hours worked. The employee would win in most states.

Given a static pool of employees given a free choice between compensated single or free multi time, it sounds pretty fair. However, what if the owner starts recruiting pilots that only have an interest in flying the Apache?

Then, what if he finds willing bodies that will fly the single for free?
Pilots are a class of exempt employees in the FLSA. Minimum wage doesn't apply.
 
Really people. Don't get you knickers in a wad. It is OPTIONAL.

It may be optional, but he's still making money off of it. He didn't buy the thing to let it sit. He knows his pilots are going to fly it. I don't care how stand up a guy he is....He's not in business for charity, he's doing it to make money. Every time that plane is in the air, money goes into his pocket, guaranteed. The only thing he is doing by paying them in multi time is protecting his cut.
 
Pilots are a class of exempt employees in the FLSA. Minimum wage doesn't apply.
Correct, but other state and federal wage law applies. If a pilot chooses to fly the multi exclusively, that time is compensation and it must be quantified and taxed, with proper Social Security, unemployment, and withholding.
 
Really people. Don't get you knickers in a wad. It is OPTIONAL.

Most cases where people work for free or for grossly low wages are technically optional. It is optional to work for great mistakes, or a PFT/PFJ operator, or to take an unpaid internship. That doesn't make it OK or change the fact that it could be detrimental to the profession if pilots exercise the option to work for free.
 
Most cases where people work for free or for grossly low wages are technically optional. It is optional to work for great mistakes, or a PFT/PFJ operator, or to take an unpaid internship. That doesn't make it OK or change the fact that it could be detrimental to the profession if pilots exercise the option to work for free.
People keep making the comparison to PFT gigs and it just doesn't work.

The difference is a true PFT "job" your entire job is dependent on you paying to be there. There is never an assumption of making a realistic wage. OP's situation doesn't work in your comparison because he already has the job which seems to pay a reasonable amount. His continued employment is not predicated on his flying the twin for free.
 
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