Trying to fly for the military

[pilotben1986]

What is the big deal?! those of you who fly for the Air Force or work for the military in general know that we take foreigners and make them U.S. Nationals and pilots and other countries do the same. The task is made pretty simple, same way we do it. We recruit from overseas and allow that individual to become citizens while in. If they choose not to become U.S. citizens then when there term is up they just get to go back home. I know some of you military guys have been to a naturalization ceromony...c'mon they do it all the time! When are we not having one of those ceromonies... those of you who haven't been need to get more involved in your Air Force or branch. We have loads of airmen who are not citizens but the majority of them do decide to go through the process so they can serve another term.

 

[pilotben1986]

Hacker15e, you may have got a lot of flying in but there are a good amount of young pilots who aren't getting there time in and just like any position in the military as you gain rank you do a little less of the operational mission and more management (flying your desk) usually around Lieutenant Colonel and up. And dint tell me you dont know some pilots who for the most part are at a desk or a cubical. Before I got out I worked a second job as an instructor with a major in the Air Force and all I heard was him complaining about the crap he had to put up with... he too has lots of flying be he said he preferred not to because of the bull crap. Another friend of mine I worked with was a citation pilot for the Army as a warrant officer. All he ever spoke of was how much he enjoyed that life compared to when he was an air force pilot. He said "ass a warrant officer in the Army I can be my own boss and I am not in charge of anyone" "I have it pretty easy and I usually make my own schedules" he just recently retired after 20 years of service. So mostly all around I havent heard great things... But really each individuals experience is going to be different I threw in my two cents and all you should do is throw yours in not bash mine. You say what you've seen and I will say what I have. The guy needs to hear the good with the bad. right? maybe you are just in with the "good ol boys"

I still love the air force though

 

[pilotben1986]

you guys dont get so fired up just post your views and experience good or bad and let the guy decide on his own. Give him other options if you have it. Dont bash on my opinion or others.

I think he should here all sides and opinions...

 

[Hacker15e]

What is the big deal?! those of you who fly for the Air Force or work for the military in general know that we take foreigners and make them U.S. Nationals and pilots and other countries do the same. The task is made pretty simple, same way we do it. We recruit from overseas and allow that individual to become citizens while in. If they choose not to become U.S. citizens then when there term is up they just get to go back home.

The big deal is that what you're saying is not correct.

That's not how it works for officers.

Officers must be US citizens to apply for officer training, which is a highly competitive and selective process. I can assure you that the USAF is not over in foreign countries "recruiting" for officers. They're certainly not letting foreign nationals become officers to "try out" being an American citizen, then letting them go back to where ever they came from if they don't choose to naturalize.

I have a friend who is a dual US and UK citizen, and is applying for OTS. He has to renounce his UK citizenship (remember, he all ready IS a US citizen...) and be exclusively a US citizen in order to become an officer.

Hacker15e, you may have got a lot of flying in but there are a good amount of young pilots who aren't getting there time in and just like any position in the military as you gain rank you do a little less of the operational mission and more management (flying your desk) usually around Lieutenant Colonel and up. And dint tell me you dont know some pilots who for the most part are at a desk or a cubical.

What airframes did these young pilots that you're speaking of fly? The only airframe I know of right now where pilots are really hurting for time in the air is the B-1. Everyone else is flying their ass off in the GWOT -- cargo, tanker, fighter, LD/HD, trainer, etc.

By the way -- officers are up for their Lt Col promotion board in their 14th year of service. If a guy serving as a pilot in the USAF can expect to have his flying "slow down" after 14 years of good flying, I think that's a pretty successful career in aviation. There is definitely NOT less flying now than when I was a young pup. When I left my first tour in a fighter unit, I had about 750 hours in the F-15E, and that was considered more than average. Now, with all the OEF and OIF deployments, there are young O-3s leaving their FIRST FLYING TOUR with over 1,000 hours in the jet. In the fighter community, young guys are flying WAY more now than they (we) used to.

The point of this whole line of discussion is that you are someone who is not -- and has never been -- a military pilot and you are trying to give advice about it to other people who aren't. Some of the things you're saying are not correct, even though it may be what you perceived to be true while you were in the AF or it is what you've heard from others. Either way, some of it contradicts with what those of us who are military pilots have experienced. We are trying to set the record straight.

 

[pilotben1986]

The big deal is that what you're saying is not correct.

That's not how it works for officers.

Officers must be US citizens first, then apply for officer training, which is a highly competitive and selective process. I can assure you that the USAF is not over in foreign countries "recruiting" for officers.



What airframes did these young pilots that you're speaking of fly? The only airframe I know of right now where pilots are really hurting for time in the air is the B-1. Everyone else is flying their ass off in the GWOT -- cargo, tanker, fighter, LD/HD, trainer, etc.

By the way -- officers are up for their Lt Col promotion board in their 14th year of service. If a guy serving as a pilot in the USAF can expect to have his flying "slow down" after 14 years of good flying, I think that's a pretty successful career in aviation.

oh come on you know it depends on the individuals situation. If you want to know the ones that I am talking about for low timers it is the test wing f-16 and 15's and A-10's. For the guy who had lots of time flying he was MH-53 pilot who transitioned to the CV-22 and complained the most. more than the guys who spent a lot of time in cubicles.

 

[Hacker15e]

If you want to know the ones that I am talking about for low timers it is the test wing f-16 and 15's and A-10's.

Seriously, dude...the guys flying fighters in the TEST WING (at either Eglin or Nellis) can't be considered "low timers" by any yardstick.

A pilot's experiences with frequency of flying in a test wing won't be anywhere near a typical fighter wing with operational squadrons. Apples and oranges.

 

[2a5x1]

Just to piggy back on pilotben1986. I went with one of my instrument students to his Civil Air Patrol training. He is currently getting trained up as a mission scanner. While he was pre flighting I had a FAQ with his pilot. Turns out he is an Air Force officer who just made captain. After UPT his track was to fly helicopters. I'm not exactly sure how much time he logged flying rotors but his TT is less than a thousand hours. That includes everything from UPT, whatever his flying assignment after UPT, and the civilian stuff he's been doing. He is currently flying a cubical and relying on the auxillary Air Force to give him flying hours. He commutes from another state just to get that time.

 

[bravodelta79]

Keep diggin', PilotBen.

you =

 

[Hacker15e]

Just to piggy back on pilotben1986. I went with one of my instrument students to his Civil Air Patrol training. He is currently getting trained up as a mission scanner. While he was pre flighting I had a FAQ with his pilot. Turns out he is an Air Force officer who just made captain. After UPT his track was to fly helicopters. I'm not exactly sure how much time he logged flying rotors but his TT is less than a thousand hours. That includes everything from UPT, whatever his flying assignment after UPT, and the civilian stuff he's been doing. He is currently flying a cubical and relying on the auxillary Air Force to give him flying hours. He commutes from another state just to get that time.

Okay, so he just made Captain. He has been in the USAF four years and, unless there is something very unusual about his career progression, is still on his first operational assignment.

No kidding he has less than 1,000 hours.

By the way, both of these dudes that you guys are apparently holding up as examples of "flying a cubical" (or, as the rest of the English-speaking world spells it, "cubicle") and how nobody is getting any flying time are both helo drivers. Neither of these guys is remotely a valid piece of "evidence" to support the argument is being made about USAF flying here. Come on...none of the Major airlines even recognize rotary wing time as valid.

Again, none of the anecdotal evidence you guys have presented is representative of a typical USAF line pilot.

Here are the facts, folks:

Guys who go to heavies -- tankers, cargo, airlift -- after UPT are getting a lot of flying time, but none of it is PIC turbine until after the first year or two when they upgrade from copilot to aircraft commander. In an average 10-year commitment, they will rack up about 3,000-4,000 hours of total time and about 1,500 hours of PIC. They might have also done at least one tour in a training squadron, possibly UPT, where they will also have racked up a bunch of instructror hours. They will be ripe to go into any Major airline the day they leave active duty. If they stay in the AF, the next 9 years will have all of the "bad" deals -- the desk time, the non-flying staff job, etc.

Guys who go to fighters will get much less flying time -- because it is happening 1.5 at a time -- but it will all be PIC turbine from the start. They will have much less total time at the end of their 10 years -- probably 1,500-2,000 hours, but it will all be PIC. Like their heavy dude counterparts, they will also be ripe to go get a job at a Major. Same story applies to the guys who decide to stay in for the next 9-10 years -- they'll fly a lot less. I have averaged more than 200 hours a year for the last 10 years. I got more in F-15E flying than I did as a T-38 instructor (because of the short sorties in the T-38). I am an O-4 who has been in 14 years, and last year I logged the most hours of ANY year since I've been flying. Yes, there is a crapload of paperwork, meetings, and desk-driving. But there's not significantly less flying.

 

[ppragman]

Okay, so he just made Captain. He has been in the USAF four years and is still on his first operational assignment.

No kidding he has less than 1,000 hours.

By the way, both of these dudes who are apparently "examples" of "flying a cubical" (or, as the rest of the English-speaking world spells it, "cubicle") are helo drivers.

Come on...none of the Major airlines even recognize rotary wing time as valid.

Neither of these guys is remotely a valid piece of "evidence" to support whatever obtuse argument is being made about USAF flying here.

Here is the facts, folks:

Guys who go to heavies -- tankers, cargo, airlift -- after UPT are getting a lot of flying time, but none of it is PIC turbine until after the first year or two when they upgrade from copilot to aircraft commander. In an average 10-year commitment, they will rack up about 3,000-4,000 hours of total time and about 1,500 hours of PIC. They might have also done at least one tour in a training squadron, possibly UPT, where they will also have racked up a bunch of instructror hours. They will be ripe to go into any Major airline the day they leave active duty. If they stay in the AF, the next 9 years will have all of the "bad" deals -- the desk time, the non-flying staff job, etc.

Guys who go to fighters will get much less flying time -- because it is happening 1.5 at a time -- but it will all be PIC turbine from the start. They will have much less total time at the end of their 10 years -- probably 1,500-2,000 hours, but it will all be PIC. Like their heavy dude counterparts, they will also be ripe to go get a job at a Major. Same story applies to the guys who decide to stay in for the next 9-10 years -- they'll fly a lot less.

I'll never consider 3000-4000TT on average through 10 years to be a lot of flying time, because its not, it averages out to about 30hrs per month, that's hardly flying.

Don't go into the military for the flight time. You won't have the option to fly 1000hrs per year, whereas in the civilian sector, you can fly as much as 1400hrs per year, go figure.

 

[SteveC]

Quality versus quantity.

 

[Hacker15e]

I'll never consider 3000-4000TT on average through 10 years to be a lot of flying time, because its not, it averages out to about 30hrs per month, that's hardly flying.

Don't go into the military for the flight time. You won't have the option to fly 1000hrs per year, whereas in the civilian sector, you can fly as much as 1400hrs per year, go figure.

Well, that gets right back to the original argument at the core of this thread:

Military officers are officers first and pilots second.

 

[ppragman]

Quality versus quantity.

There is a lot of truth to that, what I was saying is that if you're thinking you'll be flying day in and day out, putting on 100hrs a month, look else where. That's not what the military is about, it has goals, and missions, and your goals and missions are tertiary to satisfying whatever objective they have in mind. If that means you fly a desk, then you fly the friggin desk. Someone who wanted to fly a lot would be better off to go to the guard, and fly a normal job the rest of the time, to each his own however.

 

[bunk22]

you guys dont get so fired up just post your views and experience good or bad and let the guy decide on his own. Give him other options if you have it. Dont bash on my opinion or others.

I think he should here all sides and opinions...

Problem is, you provided incorrect information as fact. Offer an opinion but when it comes to military flying info, let the military pilots offer the facts.

 

[ppragman]

Well, that gets right back to the original argument at the core of this thread:

Military officers are officers first and pilots second.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner! I agree.

 

[bunk22]

There is a lot of truth to that, what I was saying is that if you're thinking you'll be flying day in and day out, putting on 100hrs a month, look else where. That's not what the military is about, it has goals, and missions, and your goals and missions are tertiary to satisfying whatever objective they have in mind. If that means you fly a desk, then you fly the friggin desk. Someone who wanted to fly a lot would be better off to go to the guard, and fly a normal job the rest of the time, to each his own however.

I believe how we log our flight time is different as well. The flying, the missions, the conditions are often not comparable either. Flying to the carrier (especially at night), a strike mission, tanker mission in bad weather, rescue mission in bad wx, etc. Certain civilian flying is certainly no doubt intense but there is nothing in the world like military flying. Probably why some of the airline hire military pilots with less flight time over their civilian counterparts with similar flight time. If a military pilot wants good flight time, they need to go to the VT's, specifically primary flight training as part of a squadron, not the wing. For those aviators, 1500-1800 in three years is doable which is very hard to do in three years in the fleet.

I agree, the ANG is a good way to go. If I had to do it over, I would have tried to go that route.

 

[2a5x1]

I have also had a FAQ with a AC-130U pilot. His rank is captain and he has less than a thousand hours. The military has some cool aircraft but I think there is alot of BS involved that just wouldn't make a ten year contract worth fulfilling.

Quality versus quantity. I've seen some military pilots do some things that have made me question their quality. The PC-12s around HRT have landed gear up and their is one that is totalled in a hanger on HRT from a landing where the pilot forgot to flare. I've heard a pavelow pilot pullout onto the active runway without a clearance from the tower to do so. I've seen some stuff pilots and crewmembers write up in the 781 A's that make you question their ability to even operate the aircrafts systems properly.

 

[Ian_J]

Goodness. It's interesting to see all the opinions out there from civilians about how it is in the military, many with low time and experience, and all without military experience themselves. Then you have actual military pilots - some with over a decade of military experience, whose experience is trumped because a 400 hour CFI "talked to a guy?"

The reality is if you haven't been a military pilot you have no idea what they do during their non-flying time. It's funny to hear "I wouldn't want to put up with that BS" when you have no idea what the BS actually is. It's disturbing to see excellent guidance and mentorship provided by someone like Hacker who espouses a true Warrior-Ethos mentality - someone who puts country and duty and the mission above one's desire to selfishly operate an aircraft purely for personal reasons - ignored.

If I defined my military experience by flight time alone, I'd feel I had been cheated. Being led by, and leading, the men and women in our military was an honor that simply strapping on an aircraft couldn't come close to. Operating some machine is a simple, simple task compared to the complexities involved in military leadership.

 

[ppragman]

I believe how we log our flight time is different as well. The flying, the missions, the conditions are often not comparable either. Flying to the carrier (especially at night), a strike mission, tanker mission in bad weather, rescue mission in bad wx, etc. Certain civilian flying is certainly no doubt intense but there is nothing in the world like military flying. Probably why some of the airline hire military pilots with less flight time over their civilian counterparts with similar flight time. If a military pilot wants good flight time, they need to go to the VT's, specifically primary flight training as part of a squadron, not the wing. For those aviators, 1500-1800 in three years is doable which is very hard to do in three years in the fleet.

I agree, the ANG is a good way to go. If I had to do it over, I would have tried to go that route.

ehh, I've flown in bad wx, to short strips with no go around, in the 1900 and the 207, I've flown in weather that would make the coast guard cringe (they actually turned around, and we made it in to Sitka). Ice, piss poor equipment, I flew some divers back to kodiak state at less than tree top level in brutal turbulence because they couldn't go high without suffering the consequences, etc. I've never been in the military however, so comparison is merely academic to at this point (give me a year or two to finish college, then I'll be off to OCS). However, I've only been shot at on the job a few times, and not every time, so that's also a factor.

I have also had a FAQ with a AC-130U pilot. His rank is captain and he has less than a thousand hours. The military has some cool aircraft but I think there is alot of BS involved that just wouldn't make a ten year contract worth fulfilling.

Quality versus quantity. I've seen some military pilots do some things that have made me question their quality. The PC-12s around HRT have landed gear up and their is one that is totalled in a hanger on HRT from a landing where the pilot forgot to flare. I've heard a pavelow pilot pullout onto the active runway without a clearance from the tower to do so. I've seen some stuff pilots and crewmembers write up in the 781 A's that make you question their ability to even operate the aircrafts systems properly.

I've seen more than a few. So far, my experience with guys exclusively trained in the military has been less than stellar. However, pilots are pilots, and will screw up and do stupid things regardless of where they got their training. What it comes down to at the end of the day is that a 2500TT pilot will make mistakes that pilots at 2500TT everywhere make regardless of where he's/she's trained. There is something to be said for quantity, however, the more quantity you have and are still alive/not violated is usually a good indicator of whether or not you're worth a damn.

 

[2a5x1]

Goodness. It's interesting to see all the opinions out there from civilians about how it is in the military, many with low time and experience, and all without military experience themselves. Then you have actual military pilots - some with over a decade of military experience, whose experience is trumped because a 400 hour CFI "talked to a guy?"

The reality is if you haven't been a military pilot you have no idea what they do during their non-flying time. It's funny to hear "I wouldn't want to put up with that BS" when you have no idea what the BS actually is.

I'm in the Air Force and my job deals directly with military pilots. So I kind of know "how it is in the military". My interactions with military pilots has made me not even want to fly for the military. What "they do during their non-flying time" is goofing off back at the OSS, taking two hour lunches, and shopping at the BX. I do know what that BS is. Have you ever heard of BOHICA ? When you try to put "talked to a guy?" in that context, that guy is you and that 15E pilot.