Training contracts

dustoff17 said:
This confuses me; if I'm reading this correctly, you feel morally obligated....UNLESS you can get more money/better benefits elsewhere.
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Unless I get elected president (literally) or have to move to take care of a dying family member, I fully plan on honoring my training contract, despite whatever other shiny jets get put in front of me.
 
I left early due to personal reasons and the company wouldn't work with me. So, I have to resign. The contract is not enforceable (I have checked with multiple attorneys). It does vary per state, at least that is my understanding.
 
At the risk of being accused of avoiding the question, contracts are by and large interpreted according to state law. The enforceability of a particular contract will turn on the language of the contract itself; the facts and circumstances under which it was entered into; the statutory and case law of the state; and, any available defenses - which can range from a failure of consideration (often available if the contract was signed after the training was completed) to unconscionability (highly fact specific), and a host of others. If a former employer is trying to collect on such a contract, I recommend the following: (1) Talk to a lawyer (most will provide an initial consultation for a small fee or even for free); (2) if the amount of money involved is substantial, it may be worth having your lawyer review the contract and the facts surrounding it so he or she can make a well reasoned recommendation as to your best course of action (you can put a cap on the amount you are willing to spend for such a review); and, finally (3) if it is a relatively small amount or if it can be negotiated so as to make it reasonable consider paying it (even if you need to do it over time). Depending on the amount of money involved, you may want to have your lawyer negotiate for you. Sometimes a call or letter from a lawyer - putting the other side on notice that you intend to contest the issue - can make them, in this case the company, much more reasonable.
 
Here's what's making my tiny little mind go all 'splodey...

Who cares if it's enforceable or not? You're signing your name - which is an accepted symbol of your integrity - to an agreement. Doesn't that matter most?
 
killbilly said:
Here's what's making my tiny little mind go all 'splodey...

Who cares if it's enforceable or not? You're signing your name - which is an accepted symbol of your integrity - to an agreement. Doesn't that matter most?
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I don't necessarily think it does. My concern is a company taking advantage of you because you're tied into a contract. While it's your responsibility to research and decide on the company prior to signing your name, after that its pure faith that management won't change their attitude while you're under contract. I don't blame anyone for trying to escape a contract if the employer begins mistreating the employee.
 
dustoff17 said:
That having been stated, while I don't agree with these contracts, I feel you should honor it if you sign it. You're only as good as your word..
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This.

If one doesn't like training contracts that some companies may require, that's fine, then never sign one or work for a company that requires one. No issue there. However, as stated above, if you do happen to sign a contract......any contract anywhere for that matter.....the above that Dustoff wrote is should be a given (barring it being broken on the other end....I'm talking all things being normal), because at the end of the day, you indeed are only as good as your word.

Well stated @dustoff17

gomntwins said:
A few years back I struck up a conversation with a corporate pilot at the local FBO. I asked him how he got his job. He told me that the job required a type, he didn't have one, so he took a job with a company that didn't have any contract. He was laughing as he was telling me how he put in his 2 week notice as soon as the paperwork had been signed on his new type cert. "That's how you get a free type in aviation!" was what he told me. I asked him if the first job was that bad, he said nah, he just didn't want to move to where the job was located.

I started understanding better why some companies require contracts. I agree there are plenty of companies that use contracts to bind a person to a poor job. I also know there are more than a few pilots out there who abuse companies and have made it difficult for them to operate without one.
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Once someone puts themselves in the shoes of the company, and in no small part due to pilots like the one described above who don't possess ethics of any kind and are as good as their word.......zero in this case......it's no wonder why some companies feel the need to "protect their interest", as @ComplexHiAv8r very correctly described it.

There are always two sides to every situation, I fully agree with @gomntwins . Sometimes, it is indeed due to a crap operation; but other times, it's due to crap pilots like the above described one. For guys like that.....they are the ones who make the company's argument for needing a contract of some sort, and hence, they are the ones who ruin it.....so to speak......for the rest of pilots in the industry who do believe that they are only as good as their word, and what they put their name to on paper.
 
killbilly said:
Here's what's making my tiny little mind go all 'splodey...

Who cares if it's enforceable or not? You're signing your name - which is an accepted symbol of your integrity - to an agreement. Doesn't that matter most?
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Agree.

Mark815 said:
I don't necessarily think it does. My concern is a company taking advantage of you because you're tied into a contract. While it's your responsibility to research and decide on the company prior to signing your name, after that its pure faith that management won't change their attitude while you're under contract. I don't blame anyone for trying to escape a contract if the employer begins mistreating the employee.
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If either end breaks their side of the contract, that's no good. An employee shouldn't have to deal with an employer mistreating them. Not at all.

But how about the other side of the equation? What if the employee starts becoming a lazy, unproductive person, showing up late for work, etc; should the company have any right to other recourse to recoup their investment in that person, other than just firing them? (assuming they made a large investment of some sort). If a contract was signed.......I would think that it goes both ways, there being some sort of repercussion if either side breaks it.
 
I have never seen a training contract but I don't think they include things such as how much you will be paid, days off, call out time, etc. etc. It would be nice to see something like that incorporated into one for sure. Some sort of clause that says if you are reduced below min days off you are free to pursue other employment free of the training bond. Also vice versa, you fail to respond to your page/call out in a timely fashion more than x times in a rolling 30 day period (or whatever) and you can be let go with the full amount of the contract balance due.

I'm all about transparency and what's fair is fair. Don't go changing the rules halfway thru the game on either party.

That being said, as competitive as corp jobs are, I doubt pilots really have a choice. You show up with something like that, they'll throw it in the trash and tell you don't let the door hit you on the way out IMO.
 
@Mark815

I get your point...and I would agree that the employer, if they fail to meet up to their end of the bargain, is fundamentally breaking faith.

This has a lot to do with expectations, I think. On both sides. Good communication would seem to be key. So would acting in good faith on both sides.

But I still stand by my earlier remarks. If I do sign something, I will meet that obligation no matter how bad it sucks.
 
killbilly said:
@Mark815

I get your point...and I would agree that the employer, if they fail to meet up to their end of the bargain, is fundamentally breaking faith.

This has a lot to do with expectations, I think. On both sides. Good communication would seem to be key. So would acting in good faith on both sides.

But I still stand by my earlier remarks. If I do sign something, I will meet that obligation no matter how bad it sucks.
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"Oh about those 10 days off a month, now you're on call 24/7 and we picked up another client so you'll probably be flying day trips 6 days a week"
"Also, we had to reduce everyone's pay 50% due to the increase in fuel prices"
"Sorry, also, we can no longer afford medical coverage for you and your family. But you can purchase it yourself for $1,200 a month" (actual figure my wife's previous employer put in front of them)
"One last thing, you now have to clean the airplane and manage it as well, we can no longer afford to have cleaners come and do it. Make sure you are up on tracking the inspections/mx/etc, you don't want to fly an airworthy airplane"

Taken to an extreme? You bet, but I've seen variants first hand. Personally, I doubt anyone would stay, but that is just me.
 
wheelsup said:
"Oh about those 10 days off a month, now you're on call 24/7 and we picked up another client so you'll probably be flying day trips 6 days a week"
"Also, we had to reduce everyone's pay 50% due to the increase in fuel prices"
"Sorry, also, we can no longer afford medical coverage for you and your family. But you can purchase it yourself for $1,200 a month" (actual figure my wife's previous employer put in front of them)
"One last thing, you now have to clean the airplane and manage it as well, we can no longer afford to have cleaners come and do it. Make sure you are up on tracking the inspections/mx/etc, you don't want to fly an airworthy airplane"

Taken to an extreme? You bet, but I've seen variants first hand. Personally, I doubt anyone would stay, but that is just me.
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I believe at that point you have material adverse change, no?
 
From the most authoritative source on the internet, Wikipedia:

"A contract of employment is a category of contract used in labour law to attribute right and responsibilities between parties to a bargain. On the one end stands an "employee" who is "employed" by an "employer". It has arisen out of the old master-servant law, used before the 20th century. Put generally, the contract of employment denotes a relationship of economic dependence and social subordination."

So yeah...higher initial training costs and more barriers to entry than law and medicine, yet you're beholden to your employer and earning borderline poverty wages? The "pilot shortage" is more like a "pilot awakening." We should be treated and compensated like the professionals we are.
 
MikeD said:
Agree.



If either end breaks their side of the contract, that's no good. An employee shouldn't have to deal with an employer mistreating them. Not at all.

But how about the other side of the equation? What if the employee starts becoming a lazy, unproductive person, showing up late for work, etc; should the company have any right to other recourse to recoup their investment in that person, other than just firing them? (assuming they made a large investment of some sort). If a contract was signed.......I would think that it goes both ways, there being some sort of repercussion if either side breaks it.
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You're correct, and I agree that there should be respect on both sides, however the odds of a pilot going after a company for breaking a training contract sounds rare. I feel like many of us would rather just cut ties and move on.


killbilly said:
@Mark815

I get your point...and I would agree that the employer, if they fail to meet up to their end of the bargain, is fundamentally breaking faith.

This has a lot to do with expectations, I think. On both sides. Good communication would seem to be key. So would acting in good faith on both sides.

But I still stand by my earlier remarks. If I do sign something, I will meet that obligation no matter how bad it sucks.
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I think it's an interesting subject. If I sign my name, its because I'm giving my word, but if a company does a 180 and starts abusing employees or changing work rules for the worse, you can bet I'll be doing all I can to find a new employer.
 
Mark815 said:
I think it's an interesting subject. If I sign my name, its because I'm giving my word, but if a company does a 180 and starts abusing employees or changing work rules for the worse, you can bet I'll be doing all I can to find a new employer.
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this...
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
Care to expand on that please.
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Why should anyone have to sign a training contract? I know I signed one with my current employer and I might sound like a hypocrite. They are providing a mandatory training and testing platform in order for you to complete the job you were hired for. Why would/should anyone have to sign a contract for something that is required of the employer in order for me to complete my duties?
 
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