Traffic Pattern Question

[bob loblaw]

Actually, it WAS in the AFM as an approved entry. (ie. crosswind and turn left to enter downwind)

The AFM used to state that you were allowed to cross midfield at Traffic Pattern Altitude (and giving way to traffic already on downwind), and turn left (left traffic) to enter the downwind.

Adding 500 feet is a dangerous practice because is places you in the turbine aircrafts pattern altitude (1500 AGL).

It is a lot safer to cross at pattern alt and turn left, than to cross and do a right 270 in front of other arriving aircraft. There is no difference in the "alternate" entry than when you are doing laps in the pattern. When you are doing circuits, do you exit the pattern and re-enter on the 45? Or do you turn crosswind to downwind? (Like I don't know the answer).

Either way, be safe out there.


PS....I never circled the windsock. I just fly a downwind leg and look at it. If the wind favors the runway you picked...land. If not, transition to the other downwind and land on that runway.

You want to add 500 feet to the pattern altitude if you cross over the airport at a 90 degree angle to the downwind and teardrop to enter the 45. You don't want to add 500 feet if you cross midfield at pattern altitude and turn left to join the downwind. This technique should be done at pattern altitude.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

"Guts"? Or "Gump(s)"?

Based on the complete "Green Guts" post, I think he meant "Guts." I've never heard of it before, but not bad and just as useful in its own way as GUMPS.

 

[jtrain609]

Yeah but you don't want to loose that 500' when in any established part of the pattern, right? You don't know what is below you and you could well be desecnding into another aircraft.

Also NJA is the guy that's flying that turbine equipment at 1,500' AGL, so don't you think you should listen to what standard procedure is for turbine equipment and make sure you stay out of their way?

 

[SteveC]

Based on the complete "Green Guts" post, I think he meant "Guts." I've never heard of it before, but not bad and just as useful in its own way as GUMPS.

You lost me. What's the 'complete "Green Guts"' post???

(not disagreeing with the use of "guts", just trying to figure it out....)

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

You lost me. What's the 'complete "Green Guts"' post???

(not disagreeing with the use of "guts", just trying to figure it out....)

It was short:

When I was instructing, it was midfield downwind every time. Then multiple checks before landing including "green guts" (3 green lights, Guts = mixture and prop) on final.

Instead of using the old standard GUMPS, he checks for the green light(s) that signify gear down and makes sure that the "guts" of the airplane are taken care of. In his airplane it's mixture and prop; in mine it would be mixture, prop and fuel pump.

A memory aid doesn't =have to= be an acronym that takes everything and gives it its own letter.

 

[SteveC]

Gotcha. Agreed.

 

[bob loblaw]

Yeah but you don't want to loose that 500' when in any established part of the pattern, right? You don't know what is below you and you could well be desecnding into another aircraft.

Also NJA is the guy that's flying that turbine equipment at 1,500' AGL, so don't you think you should listen to what standard procedure is for turbine equipment and make sure you stay out of their way?

Correct John, you do not want to lose the 500 feet above pattern altitude in any part of the established pattern. I re-read my post and I don't see where I suggested that! You want to cross over the field at 1500' at a 90 degree angle to the downwind. Continue on that heading for atleast two miles, while also descending to the pattern altitude. Make the 180 degree turn and enter the 45 degree angle to the downwind at pattern altitude, while also making the calls on the CTAF. This is paraphrasing recommended procedure for entering an uncontrolled field.

You can also cross over the field at a 90 degree angle to the downwind, at pattern altitude, and turn left to join the downwind. As for the turbine equipment being at 1500 feet, if he is doing the same procedure that I am, he should be 500 feet above his pattern altitude as well. His pattern altitude is 1500 feet, he should cross over the runway at a 90 degree angle to the downwind at 2000 feet. If I use the recommended pattern entry procedure set forth by the AIM, and I do, the only time we will be in conflict is if I cross over at 1500' and the turbine is on downwind. This is where you have to be extremely vigilant in your collision avoidance (see and avoid ) techniques.

 

[NJA_Capt]

.... if he is doing the same procedure that I am...

We're not. Turbine TP altitude is 1500', and we fly it at 1500'.

he should be 500 feet above his pattern altitude as well.

No, we shouldn't be. We aren't flying a 180 to enter the 45 either. Personally, I think this habit of crossing midfield and doing a 180 to the 45 was thought up by some FBO owner to milk another tenth of hobbs time from renters.

If I use the recommended pattern entry procedure set forth by the AIM,

Nowhere in the AIM does it say to add 500' at midfield. Nor does it say to cross midfield and do a 180 to RE-enter on the 45.

This is where you have to be extremely vigilant in your collision avoidance (see and avoid ) techniques.

Are you good at judging a jet approaching downwind at 200kts?

 

[bob loblaw]

We're not. Turbine TP altitude is 1500', and we fly it at 1500'.




No, we shouldn't be. We aren't flying a 180 to enter the 45 either. Personally, I think this habit of crossing midfield and doing a 180 to the 45 was thought up by some FBO owner to milk another tenth of hobbs time from renters.




Nowhere in the AIM does it say to add 500' at midfield. Nor does it say to cross midfield and do a 180 to RE-enter on the 45.



Are you good at judging a jet approaching downwind at 200kts?

NetjetCApt, your right, the AIM doesn't say to add 500 feet to each of our pattern altitudes. It does say that pattern altitudes for propeller driven aircraft could range from 600 to 1500 feet AGL. It also says that turbojet pattern altitudes sometimes extend up to 2500. It doesn't say anything about doing a 180 to enter the 45 to the downwind, but I am curious about something. If I fly over midfield at 1500 feet at a 90 degree angle to the runway, and continue for two miles on that heading and don't do a 180 degree turn, How would I get to the 45 entry to downwind?

And yes, I am good at judging at jet on downwind at 200kts.

 

[jtrain609]

I'm sure not! I almost got destroyed by a Hawker that, if he had not been paying attention and monitoring unicom before approach cleared him for his approach, I would have never seen. He knew where I was though, because he was lucky enough to be able to listen in on the unicom frequency. I know that this can't always happen, but we got lucky in that situation.

 

[bob loblaw]

I'm sure not! I almost got destroyed by a Hawker that, if he had not been paying attention and monitoring unicom before approach cleared him for his approach, I would have never seen. He knew where I was though, because he was lucky enough to be able to listen in on the unicom frequency. I know that this can't always happen, but we got lucky in that situation.

John, I just want to make sure I get this straight. You are going to cross over the middle of an uncontrolled field at pattern altitude because of the remote possibility of a jet at 1500 feet. You do know that at most uncontrolled fields there are more piston single and light twin aircraft operating at those fields than turbines, right! I am not singling you out, but you are saying that in the slim chance a jet is in the pattern, you are going to cross at pattern altitude and then enter the pattern. You just increased your chances of getting into a mid-air 4 fold. What is the difference between a collision with a jet, or a collision with a light twin or single piston.

Most, I won't say all, but most jet operators will be talking on the radio and giving you ample warning that they are going to be there. Would you agree to that Netjetcapt? How many people have been cut off by a piston single or twin just popping in front of you and not saying a word. I can safely operate with turbines because I was trained at BWI during the mid 80's before runway 33 right was constructed. I know how to fly an airplane between to airliners and still make the first turnoff and not make the second jet go-around. BTW, most jets have TCAS, the hawker saw you on the TCAS, along with monitoring CTAF, that is how he knew you were there.

In summary, there are more piston single and twins operating at uncontrolled fields than jets. The piston guys may not be talking on the radio, the jets more than likely will give you a warning. There is no difference in a collision between the two types of equipment. Either way you will most likely die! So why increase your risk?

 

[mtsu_av8er]

In summary, there are more piston single and twins operating at uncontrolled fields than jets.

Valid argument, Bob, but also extremely situationally dependant. There are alot of uncontrolled airports around that have just as much turbine traffic as piston. At my airport, you have nearly as much chance of being run over by a King Air or Citation as you do being run over by a Cherokee!

 

[NJA_Capt]

If I fly over midfield at 1500 feet at a 90 degree angle to the runway, and continue for two miles on that heading.....

You don't...you turn left and enter the downwind. How hard is that?
Where in the AFM is the TPA plus 500? And where is the "continue 2 nm?"
When you fly laps in the pattern, do you extend crosswind 2nm and loop around and re-enter on a 45? Or do you "turn left?"

 

[NJA_Capt]

I was trained at BWI during the mid 80's....

Tower controlled vs. uncontrolled. The tower sequenced you and knew you where both there for the last :20 minutes. It's a little, OK a lot, different than a jet popping up at the last minute and trying to find every C152 on his own.

...but you are saying that in the slim chance a jet is in the pattern, you are going to cross at pattern altitude and then enter the pattern.

If you always fly the pattern the same way, on the "slim" chance a jet shows up, it won't be a big deal. It will be a BIG deal if I am trying to space myself and someone "extends 2 miles and does a 270 on my downwind." With your back to the approaching traffic I might add.

You just increased your chances of getting into a mid-air...

Not as great as doing your 180-270 turn 3 miles from the airport where we are flying downwind (behind you).

I won't say all, but most jet operators will be talking on the radio and giving you ample warning that they are going to be there.

Actually, ATC usually switches us over at the last minute and there is very little warning, although we TRY to monitor CTAF several minutes out. HOWEVER...:10 min out is about 80 miles away. At our alt all we hear is feedback from 30 CTAF freqs. By the time we "cancel early" we are practically on downwind.

I can safely operate with turbines because before runway 33 right was constructed. I know how to fly an airplane between to airliners and still make the first turnoff and not make the second jet go-around.

ATC was doing the spacing at BWI. not the same.

most jets have TCAS...

Not true. Most NEW jets do. Many more do NOT. We have 86 Citation V's....74 of them DO NOT have TCAS. Guess which one you are more likely to see at an uncontrolled field?

So why increase your risk?

My point exactly. Why add unnecessary mileage in the pattern adding altitude and extra turns.....especially when you are doing it in someone else's real-estate.

 

[jtrain609]

When I was flying out of Arlington, we had King Air's, random business jets and Travel Air's all trying to run us down. I'm paranoid about guys doing crazy/stupid things in the pattern, such as what you're describing.

That's why I'm concerned, to be honest. Just enter the downwind on a 45. Can't make that happen? Enter the upwind on a 45, it'll get you into the pattern a lot easier/safer than doing all these random turns that you're talking about. Get into a rectangle around the airport and be where people expect you to be.

 

[bob loblaw]

You don't...you turn left and enter the downwind. How hard is that?
Where in the AFM is the TPA plus 500? And where is the "continue 2 nm?"
When you fly laps in the pattern, do you extend crosswind 2nm and loop around and re-enter on a 45? Or do you "turn left?"

There is nothing wrong with doing this procedure. I even said so in on of my previous posts. I said not to add 500 feet to your altitude when using this procedure. Please go back and re-read my posts and you will see I advocate this. BWI is a controlled field, however, trying to fly a 152 between two airliners is not an easy task.

 

[bob loblaw]

In a previous post, I advocated crossing midfield at 1500 feet and proceeding two to three miles before doing a course reversal and entering the 45 degree at pattern altitude to downind. I was told by NetjetsCapt and John Hershoff that this is unsafe and crazy behavior. So, I decided to find some authority on the subject to quote from. Having a respected sorce usually convinces naysayers that you are actually safe and abiding by recommendations set forth by the FAA and AOPA.

Quoting from a AOPA Air Safety Foundation safety advisory. " AC 90-66 A describes the preferred entry from the "opposite" side of the pattern. Cross over at least 500 feet above the pattern altitude ( normally 1,500 feet ). When well clear of the pattern-approximately 2 miles- descend to pattern altitude and enter at 45 degrees to the downwind leg. Because large and turbine aircraft fly 1,500 foot-agl patterns, crossing 500 feet above the single-engine pattern altitude might place you in conflict with traffic. If large or turbine aircraft are operating into your airport, 2,000 feet agl is a safer altitude."

They go on to list the other ways of entering the pattern at pattern altitude. Midfield turn left to join the downwind giving way to the people using the preferred method.

I agree that 2,000 feet is a safer altitude, but I would stick to 1,500 agl unless there is a high volume of turbine traffic. I also agree with MTSU that it is situational. If I go to an airport with high density turbines, I won't be at 1,500 feet. I will be 2,000 or higher. I operate at airports that turbines don't frequent, and the airports that do are controlled. This is why I stick to the 1,500 agl method.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

How did something so simple turn into a huge argument?

If you are using the cross-over/teardrop procedure, you cross the field at least 500' above the traffic pattern.

If you are using a midfield crosswind to downwind procedure, you cross the field at traffic pattern altitude.

Two different procedures for two different pilots, neither particularly inferior or superior to the other. Sorry. I don't get the argument.

 

[jtrain609]

Because if you cross over midfield and do the teardrop at TPA +500' you are right in line to get broadsided by a jet that is on downwind.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Why? If the field is one used by jets, then TPA + 500' is 2000 AGL isn't it?