Tough Love

Great explanation @CaptBill

Like I've said in other Great Lakes, GoJet, Silver threads; it is a place to gather experience and better yourself for another opportunity that comes around. I have a lot of friends that have used Great Lakes during the recession and later to continue working to improve themselves while others remained furloughed. You are not going to get any better or marketable sitting on your ass waiting for the magic call to come in.
 
Great post @CaptBill . I think all of us need an attitude adjustment from time to time, and not just in our professional lives. Thanks for mine today.
 
I'll be honest, a bit over dramatic. Lets sum it up, some people make it, some don't. Some are good, some are bad but most in between. Timing is everything and we don't always get what we want.

I'll give you that. The point was to try to help the ones who probably wouldn't make it, be the ones that likely will.
You Navy guys are so to the point....:cool:
 
I'll give you that. The point was to try to help the ones who probably wouldn't make it, be the ones that likely will.
You Navy guys are so to the point....:cool:

I wasn't trying to be mean or say it was off the mark, it was on the mark but yeah, I'm all about short, sweet, to the point. Plus, I can't write quite as eloquent. I'm one of those frustrated pilots btw, retired Navy pilot, thinking I have something to offer, wanting a Legacy but them not wanting me :)
 
I wasn't trying to be mean or say it was off the mark, it was on the mark but yeah, I'm all about short, sweet, to the point. Plus, I can't write quite as eloquent. I'm one of those frustrated pilots btw, retired Navy pilot, thinking I have something to offer, wanting a Legacy but them not wanting me :)
There is a joke somewhere in there ;)
 
If you aren't where you want to be, it's likely you, not anybody else. Stop blaming the world and get up earlier tomorrow than your competition and do something they don't or won't do.

Thanks for the advice. That will stick with me forever.
 
Work hard and sincerely appreciate that someone is willing to pay you to fly airplanes.

Lots of great advice, but this is the part I disagree with. You should never feel that you have to "appreciate" that someone is paying you do a job that you are qualified to do. They aren't doing you a favor, they're conducting a business transaction. You get paid in exchange for providing them labor that brings them revenue. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. There is no reason for gratitude from either party.
 
Lots of great advice, but this is the part I disagree with. You should never feel that you have to "appreciate" that someone is paying you do a job that you are qualified to do. They aren't doing you a favor, they're conducting a business transaction. You get paid in exchange for providing them labor that brings them revenue. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. There is no reason for gratitude from either party.
There are very few times in life where gratitude is a detriment. A feeling of entitlement, however, might often be detrimental. (which is what your last sentence kind of sounds like, no offense)

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Best post I've read in a long time. Should be an article on the main jetcareers site. Or a sticky at the very least. Many of us, myself included have had rough rides the past few years pursuing aviation careers and need an attitude adjustment.
 
Lots of great advice, but this is the part I disagree with. You should never feel that you have to "appreciate" that someone is paying you do a job that you are qualified to do. They aren't doing you a favor, they're conducting a business transaction. You get paid in exchange for providing them labor that brings them revenue. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. There is no reason for gratitude from either party.
I guess I strangely disagree. I'm grateful that I have someone willing to pay me for my work. I, in exchange, get to take that money home and take care of my family and do all the things that require money. Nobody is required to hire us, so how else are you going to provide for your necessities? The guy that did hire your pretend employee could have hired his uncle, brother or traded work for work (bartered). The un-hired employee now has no money to eat and for rent or for gas. How can you not be grateful for an opportunity to provide for your needs? Just because you can provide a potential service to an employee doesn't mean they will give you the opportunity to do it. There could be 27 more right behind you that want the same job. You get it, and there's no need to appreciate it? :confused:
 
I guess I strangely disagree. I'm grateful that I have someone willing to pay me for my work. I, in exchange, get to take that money home and take care of my family and do all the things that require money. Nobody is required to hire us, so how else are you going to provide for your necessities? The guy that did hire your pretend employee could have hired his uncle, brother or traded work for work (bartered). The un-hired employee now has no money to eat and for rent or for gas. How can you not be grateful for an opportunity to provide for your needs? Just because you can provide a potential service to an employee doesn't mean they will give you the opportunity to do it.

(Bill, this is the point where you drop the mic and walk offstage… Bravo, Captain!)
 
I guess I strangely disagree. I'm grateful that I have someone willing to pay me for my work. I, in exchange, get to take that money home and take care of my family and do all the things that require money. Nobody is required to hire us, so how else are you going to provide for your necessities? The guy that did hire your pretend employee could have hired his uncle, brother or traded work for work (bartered). The un-hired employee now has no money to eat and for rent or for gas. How can you not be grateful for an opportunity to provide for your needs? Just because you can provide a potential service to an employee doesn't mean they will give you the opportunity to do it. There could be 27 more right behind you that want the same job. You get it, and there's no need to appreciate it? :confused:

Yep, we're just going to disagree. It's a business transaction. You have a skill to provide, and they have a need for someone with that skill. You've entered into an arrangement where you provide your skilled labor in exchange for compensation that they will provide. Neither of you is doing the other a favor.
 
Yep, we're just going to disagree. It's a business transaction. You have a skill to provide, and they have a need for someone with that skill. You've entered into an arrangement where you provide your skilled labor in exchange for compensation that they will provide. Neither of you is doing the other a favor.
I guess I'm on Bill's side on this. It's more than a business transaction, it's a business relationship, and appreciation is part of a good relationship no matter its base. And it needs to be a two way street.
 
Yep, we're just going to disagree. It's a business transaction. You have a skill to provide, and they have a need for someone with that skill. You've entered into an arrangement where you provide your skilled labor in exchange for compensation that they will provide. Neither of you is doing the other a favor.

The greatest gift to Businesses from Business acadamia was educating business "leaders" in framing the "employee" as someone that should feel an excessive level of "thanks" to the business "owner/leader" to the "opportunity" to "work" for them.

No wonder we are a lot full of passive droids.
 
I guess I'm on Bill's side on this. It's more than a business transaction, it's a business relationship, and appreciation is part of a good relationship no matter its base. And it needs to be a two way street.

Steve, I understand that you don't work for an airline, so perhaps things are different in your world, but I can assure you that if there is any relationship between employee and employer at an airline, then it's the most abusive kind, and not one where appreciation is appropriate. Of course, I don't think any employee should ever feel gratitude towards an employer, but certainly not at an airline.
 
Oh, I don't know. I agree with CaptBill. When counting my blessings, I am thankful to have a husband I adore, a house that isn't falling apart, good health, and a job doing something I love. I agree that it is a business transaction for a skill I provide.... and I'm thankful that the skill is flying instead of flipping burgers or hooking.
 
I think we're getting side-tracked on a relatively minor point in the greater context of Bill's post. Rather than do that I think I'll redirect the thread back to the original thought:

This is a difficult thread to start for me and it's even tougher to write the first post and attempt to have it say what I'm trying to convey. You might want to grab a seat, a couple of beers and an open mind to go with them. There are a lot of dynamic things happening in the airline industry these days and I'm beginning to see troubling trends, attitudes and unrealistic expectations about what what opportunities are going to leap into our laps any day now.

Let me start with a little self disclosure. Most of my friends here know that I'm an average guy by any definition. In fact, I have to work harder than most to attain average. I was a high-school dropout with a follow on GED. My grades, when I finally did make it into college, were not surprisingly.... average. I consider myself a good pilot, but I have to work ten times harder to make something look as easy as some of our pilot prodigies right here on JC can do in their sleep. In other words, life isn't particularly easy for me professionally despite being a senior captain with a major airline. I have a Proficiency Check (sim check) coming up this week and I have rehearsed callouts and procedures a thousand times in the past few months leading up to my event. I take nothing for granted and I know it will take all that I have to give a respectable performance for my evaluator. In summation, I don't have Chuck Yeager credentials and I'm hoping that my comments and thoughts don't come across as anything other than the humble and constructive nature in which they are intended.

My commitment when I joined JC many years ago was to learn new things, provide accurate advice to anybody soliciting it and more importantly, to keep it real. You can get all the smoke and mirrors on other websites and from other people purported to know what it takes to be a 747 captain in no time at all. All you have to do to discover this secret is mail in your check for $199. and attend the seminars. We all know that is not true so many of us come to JC. To me, JC has always been a place that represents real people wanting real answers.

Many of you know that Tracy and I are good friends, in fact I would go so far as to say we're close friends. I would drive hundreds of miles to rescue him from a broken down car and I have no doubt he would do the same for me. Tracy's situation with trying to establish a second career if you will, flying 121 operations, has been the topic of several threads recently. If flying were based on nice guys, Tracy would be a 777 captain, no doubt. Tracy is not the primary topic of this post, but his situation does represent some thinking that we all need to consider.

It's no secret that the sub-standard carriers are having a hard time recruiting and keeping pilots. We find a certain smugness and a little glee in knowing they are getting what they deserve by treating their employees badly. We bash them on JC every day and we talk about them with our co-workers and friends. We have convinced ourselves that nobody in their right mind would work for them and we continue to build our own pedestals higher and higher which further alienates our standards from theirs. We actually have convinced ourselves that most of the carriers out there today, in some way or another, are not worthy to even consider offering our services to. This is a self perpetuating phenomenon that now has young, relatively inexperienced guys, looking at a USAir, United or Polar 747 plane taxiing by saying to themselves "I would never work for them because....."

So here comes the "keep it real" stuff guys and I hope I don't offend anybody. Despite the airline industry undergoing massive changes almost daily, one thing will never change. Becoming a professional airline pilot in skill level, mental toughness and a strong character to do what's right in unimaginably difficult circumstances will never be easy, and many here on JC won't make it. Some of us are fooling ourselves thinking they have more to offer than we really do. It doesn't matter if you're working for FedEx Express, Great Lakes, Mesa or Delta.....the core of what you are and what you represent should be the same. Look in the mirror and ask yourself honestly "What do I have to offer a future employer?" If you don't have anything to offer Delta, Mesa shouldn't be considering you either. Logbooks are only a small piece of the puzzle, trust me on that. Many of us are old, have some bad history, have a lisp, too fat, too short, ugly or just plain unpleasant to be around. Do you think Great Lakes or Silver Airlines owes you something because you're willing to lower your standards and offer them a favor with some half-assed effort to fly for them? They don't owe you and there may be a time when we need them way more than they need us. The industry will evolve, we cant afford to allow our standards to suffer due to this turbulent transition period.

The airline world is full of good and bad and we don't get to choose. There are bad instructors, interviewers, bad schedules, beautiful sunrises, smooth landings, go-arounds, first-class seats on commutes and being left at the gate on occasion. There are good breaks and bad breaks. There are idiots flying that shouldn't be, and there are great pilots still looking for work. I am theoretically at the top of my airline career and I haven't seen it change in the past 25 years.

My humble advice to all of us, myself included, is to stop thinking we are something we are not. We're not irreplaceable, we're not immune from crashing an airplane or landing at the wrong airport. We are not too good to be a complete professional regardless of where we are employed. We are good people who should be looking to become better people without petty bias..period. If you aren't where you want to be, it's likely you, not anybody else. Stop blaming the world and get up earlier tomorrow than your competition and do something they don't or won't do. Get healthier, and do an attitude check from time to time. I've always said that this job is more about perseverance than skill and I still believe that. A good attitude and a willingness to own who we are, accept our limitations and work hard from there will get us closer to where we want to be. We are our own product. Build on yourself and take pride in being better tomorrow than you are today. Then, you'll be ready to leap when that "once in a lifetime" opportunity presents itself.

If you don't have a mirror, buy one today. That will get you started in the right direction.

I have many many friends here and wish only the best for all of you.


Bill
 
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Yep, we're just going to disagree. It's a business transaction. You have a skill to provide, and they have a need for someone with that skill. You've entered into an arrangement where you provide your skilled labor in exchange for compensation that they will provide. Neither of you is doing the other a favor.
CaptBill, love the post, and I normally dont fall for the Oprah style posts.....ATNPILOT Its OK to be thankful that you've found employment somewhere. I know its important to have the' Union face' on to not weaken a bargaining position, but that's not what this thread is about. You walk into a job interview or into a new position thinking, theyre lucky to have me, or they want me on that wall, or they need me on that wall, and you probably wont get the job or at the very least wont have a good reputation at your new company. Unions are great for many things, but they do spoil the souls of many pilots and turn their ever breath into hatred.

I used to cringe when newhires at my former company would read "tough talk" on the union web boards, then take it literally, and get themselves fired. I feel that's an appropriate analogy here...OH I would never work for them because of XYZ....Well that person who is given that advice may be "past" that stage of their career and really has no skin in the game.
Thanks to the Jetcareers "check and balance" hopefully some of the internet tough talk has been checked.
 
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