Top Ten list of...
- Thread starter EatSleepFly
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RiddlePilot
New Member
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You can fly in VFR weather while needing to fly on instruments to maintain control... that's how I log actual anyways, if I would lose control by looking outside then I'm logging it as actual.
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Heck yeah...I'm with SkyGuyEd on this one. I've logged some actual by the "flight by reference to instruments" definition. I've flown on moonless nights over the desert on V12 between Hector and Needles...think ya see anything? Nope! Pitch black.
I will agree that logging all night as actual is just plain BS.
You can fly in VFR weather while needing to fly on instruments to maintain control... that's how I log actual anyways, if I would lose control by looking outside then I'm logging it as actual.
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Heck yeah...I'm with SkyGuyEd on this one. I've logged some actual by the "flight by reference to instruments" definition. I've flown on moonless nights over the desert on V12 between Hector and Needles...think ya see anything? Nope! Pitch black.
I will agree that logging all night as actual is just plain BS.
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You can fly in VFR weather while needing to fly on instruments to maintain control... that's how I log actual anyways, if I would lose control by looking outside then I'm logging it as actual.
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Heck yeah...I'm with SkyGuyEd on this one. I've logged some actual by the "flight by reference to instruments" definition. I've flown on moonless nights over the desert on V12 between Hector and Needles...think ya see anything? Nope! Pitch black.
I will agree that logging all night as actual is just plain BS.
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So in that case, should a Private, non-instrument rated pilot doing the same route on V12 (which I'm well familiar with) in the same conditions be able to log actual?
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You can fly in VFR weather while needing to fly on instruments to maintain control... that's how I log actual anyways, if I would lose control by looking outside then I'm logging it as actual.
[/ QUOTE ]
Heck yeah...I'm with SkyGuyEd on this one. I've logged some actual by the "flight by reference to instruments" definition. I've flown on moonless nights over the desert on V12 between Hector and Needles...think ya see anything? Nope! Pitch black.
I will agree that logging all night as actual is just plain BS.
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So in that case, should a Private, non-instrument rated pilot doing the same route on V12 (which I'm well familiar with) in the same conditions be able to log actual?
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
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Legally yes, but it would raise too many questions so I wouldn't do it.
Yes this is a lame answer because it means two people in the exact same conditions can't log the same thing.... but at the same time 'joe private pilot' shouldn't be there in the first place.
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This is the exact logic used in many countries that don't allow night flight without an instrument rating. Am I saying that it should be that way? No, but I do understand the logic.
So, the question really should be, "Should a pilot with NO instrument rating be allowed to fly in those conditions?", not, "Can an instrument pilot log that as actual, even though it is flight by reference to instruments?"
Comments? Feedback? Reactions?
Legally yes, but it would raise too many questions so I wouldn't do it.
Yes this is a lame answer because it means two people in the exact same conditions can't log the same thing.... but at the same time 'joe private pilot' shouldn't be there in the first place.
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This is the exact logic used in many countries that don't allow night flight without an instrument rating. Am I saying that it should be that way? No, but I do understand the logic.
So, the question really should be, "Should a pilot with NO instrument rating be allowed to fly in those conditions?", not, "Can an instrument pilot log that as actual, even though it is flight by reference to instruments?"
Comments? Feedback? Reactions?
RiddlePilot
New Member
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but at the same time 'joe private pilot' shouldn't be there in the first place.
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I think that's what it all comes down to. Legally, the private non-instrument pilot can log actual, but should he be there in the first place? Absolutely not.
This is very much like a newly-minted instrument pilot flying an approach to minimums. Can he legally be there? Sure. Should he be? No.
but at the same time 'joe private pilot' shouldn't be there in the first place.
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I think that's what it all comes down to. Legally, the private non-instrument pilot can log actual, but should he be there in the first place? Absolutely not.
This is very much like a newly-minted instrument pilot flying an approach to minimums. Can he legally be there? Sure. Should he be? No.
E_Dawg
Moderator
Just because it's possible to fly in those conditions does not mean all night flying should be illegal for private pilots.
It's also possible to fly during the day with no reference to the horizon, say you're in Class G at 7500 in 1 mile vis, you wouldn't be able to see anything - even the ground... but you'd be legal.
I think pilot's can judge for themselves wether they should go or not; the last thing we need is another reg to make the decision for us.
It's also possible to fly during the day with no reference to the horizon, say you're in Class G at 7500 in 1 mile vis, you wouldn't be able to see anything - even the ground... but you'd be legal.
I think pilot's can judge for themselves wether they should go or not; the last thing we need is another reg to make the decision for us.
Acadia
Well-Known Member
Just found a paragraph in "FARs Explained", Kent S. Jackson (attorney specializing in Aviation).
Excerpt from the breakdown and case examples of FAR 61.51.
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Actual instrument conditions may occur during a flight on a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination of whether such a flight could be logged under part 61.51 is subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. The log should include the reasons for determining the flight was under actual instrument conditions in the even the entry is challenged.
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I also found a bunch of other references to this paragraph that stipulate that there can be zero surface lights anywhere in the pilots field of view, along with no horizon, and no sky references either. Translation you need to be pretty darn far off shore or deep into the desert out of view of all lights and under overcast with no ambient light to produce a horizon. I cant thing of a single time when I personally met all of these requirements without actually being in the clouds. Its possible, but if a person has a bunch of instrument hours logged this way I would raise the BS flag.
Excerpt from the breakdown and case examples of FAR 61.51.
[ QUOTE ]
Actual instrument conditions may occur during a flight on a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination of whether such a flight could be logged under part 61.51 is subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. The log should include the reasons for determining the flight was under actual instrument conditions in the even the entry is challenged.
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I also found a bunch of other references to this paragraph that stipulate that there can be zero surface lights anywhere in the pilots field of view, along with no horizon, and no sky references either. Translation you need to be pretty darn far off shore or deep into the desert out of view of all lights and under overcast with no ambient light to produce a horizon. I cant thing of a single time when I personally met all of these requirements without actually being in the clouds. Its possible, but if a person has a bunch of instrument hours logged this way I would raise the BS flag.
mastermags
Well-Known Member *giggity*
Here's my take on this...
If you are flying VFR, you are responsible for maintaining visual seperation from other aircraft and terrain. Therefore, by logging actual time, you are basically saying that you are not doing this, which would be illegal. Therefore, I dont think you should be able to log this time for VFR flights... If you were on an IFR flight, it would be a different scenario... but as some have stated, 300 hours of actual instrument over the desert at night might be kind of fishy to an interviewer.
If you are flying VFR, you are responsible for maintaining visual seperation from other aircraft and terrain. Therefore, by logging actual time, you are basically saying that you are not doing this, which would be illegal. Therefore, I dont think you should be able to log this time for VFR flights... If you were on an IFR flight, it would be a different scenario... but as some have stated, 300 hours of actual instrument over the desert at night might be kind of fishy to an interviewer.
