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DE727UPS

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry that you came here and got flamed to the extent that someone felt the need to close the thread. That's silly. This site is a great resource and one can usually get their questions answered by using the search feature. However, that's not as much fun and sometimes it's not thought of.

"If you can afford it, and see it the best way for you, do what you gotta do"

In my opinion, and I don't mean to flame you, just to give you something to think about...this is a dangerous statement to make. Why?

As more and more people decide to go this route....the more it brings the industry down. The danger is that it becomes the industry practice, and accepted standard, that one should pay a fee to aquire a job. Also, that one should pay to log time in a seat (job) that would normally be occupied by a professional (paid) crewmember. These sorts of schemes only lower the bar for the career expectations of professional pilots and puts money in the pockets of airline managers and stockholders.

I wish you luck as you look into a piloting career and hope that you take the constructive comments from the other thread to heart.
 
Whats up with the negativity??

Thanks a lot to all those who responded positively and honestly to my thread on paying for jet time. But I just like to say, its not the first time I've asked an innocent question in here and received a harsh and negative response. Pilots and enthusiast in here need to understand that guys like myself are new, we want to enter the industry because it is our lifelong dream. I cant understand why pilots seem to act like disgruntled postal workers. YOU HAVE A LICENSE, BE HAPPY YOU GOT THAT FAR. Guys like me cant even get enough money together to do 3 lessons, let alone a "first officer internship". So, this is my word. I think this is a great site, and thank Doug and all those who support it. Because young aviators like me need to network and need guidance. So thanks Doug and all you positive pilots out there. Young aviators need you guys. However, to all you who see it fit to take your out your own personal stress from life, family and bad day at work, bad luck, misfortune and frsutration on guys like me, LIGHTEN THE HELL UP!!! You not inspiring young pilots with such negative attitudes. I respect everyones opinion, and believe we are all entitled to have a say. But pilots are meant be inspiriers and heroes to younger ones, or else how is this industry gonna go forward???. Many of you are fortunate to have pro-licenses already, I havent even logged 5 hours!!! The industry is not great, but I got a business Degree, and the job market in the business world aint that great too!! ALL industries have the good with the bad. And if you think that the aviation industry is messed up, check out the medical profession (100 hour work weeks, little family time, average pay, stress and threats of lawsuits!!) but at the end of the day, be happy you can do one thing, FLY!!!
 
Re: Whats up with the negativity??

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But pilots are meant be inspiriers and heroes to younger ones, or else how is this industry gonna go forward???. Many of you are fortunate to have pro-licenses already, I havent even logged 5 hours!!!

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Everyone who has 'made it' has stood in your shoes at one time... they didn't make it because they were 'fortunate' but because they worked at it and made it happen. I would rather hear it told like it is than get sunshine blown up my rear.
 
Re: Whats up with the negativity??

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(100 hour work weeks, little family time, average pay, stress and threats of lawsuits!!) but at the end of the day, be happy you can do one thing, FLY!!!

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Flying is just the thing an airline pilot does between handling bad passengers, explaining to his family about missing yet ANOTHER Christmas, arguing with the dispatcher, getting harassed by security, reading memoes, checking paperwork, revising manuals, attending training and getting the 'hotel itchies' in yet another dung heap hotel
 
Re: Whats up with the negativity??

Everyone who has 'made it' has stood in your shoes at one time... they didn't make it because they were 'fortunate' but because they worked at it and made it happen. I would rather hear it told like it is than get sunshine blown up my rear.

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I AM NOT SAYING OR INSINUATING THAT I WOULD RATHER THINGS BE SUGAR COATED! THAT WOULD BE WRONG, AND SET MY CAREER ON THE WRONG PATH! And when did I ever say that guys made it because the were fortunate?? Hard work is needed to survive in life PERIOD! the aviation industry is no exception. I am only saying, there is no need for sarcasm or hostility if I ask a simple question. If everytime I ask a question and get a hostile reaction, I not gonna feel welcomed in this forum, and wouldnt support it! Be honest, straight to the point, but damn, do reply to me like I'm the devils spawn! how rude is that??!
 
Re: Whats up with the negativity??

Friend to friend, you're being a tad bit sensitive.
 
Re: Whats up with the negativity??

ok Doug, my bad for being a bit sensitive, or over sensitive. I hope I'm getting my point across without being too hostile or offensive. (Apologies if I have) Put it this way, I admire you guys who have your license, it took hard work, and you got your reward. I'm embarking on that path. Guide me where you can, advise me, be honest etc, but not rude. All I ask is dont attempt to rain on my dream because your experience is not that good. No matter what happens, you'll always have your private license to fly on weekends if it comes to that. But, If the industry is tough on your life (personal/social/health) and you dont like it, you can always walk away.....
 
Re: Whats up with the negativity??

I'm just a little confused.

One of the primary purposes for me starting jetcareers is because I wanted to convey what it was really like on the 'inside' of a career in aviation.

In the 'olden' days, there was zero information on how the airline world really worked.

So I did my best to 'report from the frontline' and along the way, attracted other professional pilots with differing perspectives that would be willing to offer opinions and personal perspectives.

Sometimes you hear things that you already knew and other times you hear things that you knew but really didn't want to see. Some topics are lighthearted, whereas some other issues make people's blood boil almost instantly.

And the idea that you can 'buy experience' and be an airline pilot is one of those issues that people feel very strongly about. In my opinion, and it IS only an opinion, I usually try to learn what motivates people to feel certain ways -- instead of taking it personal, it might behoove you to pause and think, "Boy, how come guys feel so strongly about this? Perhaps it's a mistake? What are the pro's and con's? Who is on each side of the issue?"

By all means, do what you want, but I think when it comes to 'real world information' and you've got a two airline pilots and a well respected CFI saying that the program is a waste of time, it's most likely a waste of time.
 
Re: Whats up with the negativity??

I understand Doug, and fully agree with you about finding out why some topics makes peoples blood boil. But even though everyone can repsond or say what they like, (freedom of speech) it would be bit better if things went like this;

Q: What are the pros and cons of buying jet time, andyone got any advice?

A: In my opinion, it is not worth it, a con, evil, dishonest etc etc, and would advise you not to pursuit it (giving reasons why)...good luck, happy flying.

Thats my issue. It has nothing to do with the actual jet time topic. I wasnt sure about it, thats why I asked. My issue is why be sacarstic/rude and say stuff like, "if you stupid enough to buy jet time, i got a property in arizona for you!!" Thers no need for that, just be honest. I'm assuming you are mostly great people. But you guys dont know me, and I dont know you. So it would be better if we dealt with each other on a far more pleasant level. If I started beef with you, by all means attack me, but the fact is I havent.

Cus i dont know about the industry, thats why i am in this forum! I dont mean to be sensitive, but its not a pleaant thing when you ask an innocent question, and get attacked!
 
Re: Whats up with the negativity??

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Q: What are the pros and cons of buying jet time, andyone got any advice?

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Pros: None. I have never in over 11 years of flying professionally ever met a single person that went to an EagleJet-style program and got anything other than $25,000 more in debt.

Cons: Too many to list.

Advice: Stay away from those programs. Anyone promising a 'short cut' is on an GPS-direct course to your checking account.

That's the bottom line.

But it's a free country, try it out and if it works, you'll probably be the first person in the history of professional aviation that it's actually worked for.
 
thanks

Cool, thanks for the insight Doug. How come they are still in operation (eagle-jet and others) if it is so widely despised? Surely if it doesnt work, and it has a stigma attached to it, eventually that would hamper Eagle-jet's operation. In the UK, we have no such programmes. However I know that Eagle jet use airlines from different parts of Europe.
 
Re: thanks

There really aren't many left, but it's extraordinarily lucrative for the remaining operations. They were a lot more prevalent in the early 1990's.

Basically, instead of paying a pilot, say $80,000 to fly an A-320 full of either cargo or revenue-paying passengers for an entire year for 1000 hours -- you've got 4 pilots, each paying YOU $25,000, for a total of $100,000 additional profit.

Instead of having to incur $80,000 in expenses, you've got an additional $100,000 in income. And you're paying zero benefits, zero retirement and don't have to worry about spending money to retrain them in 6 to 12 months for recurrent.
 
Re: thanks

ha ha that's funny.

Pilot unions can't even agree between themselves.

Some of the airlines that had PFT were ALPA carriers. I recall Randy Babbitt announcing the ASA MEC once as "the carrier that recently signed an industry leading contract." They had just signed a new contract but new hires still had to pay about $11,000 for their own training at FSI.

The problem is that a large percentage of ALPA pilots (but still way less han half) at that time had BOUGHT their jobs.
 
Re: thanks

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Cool, thanks for the insight Doug. How come they are still in operation (eagle-jet and others) if it is so widely despised?

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I won't speak for Doug, but I'll tell you why. It's all about the money.

You got a guy to pay you $80K to do something that you should be paying someone to do. What's the starting salary for a first year first officer at a regional, something like $15K?

Net gain to the company? $95K.
 
Re: thanks

Here's an interesting reply from someone I saw on another forum.....
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Frankly, who gives a S*** about paying F***ing dues! F*** all that! It's all bu** and everyone knows it! If you want to get a job in finance (or any other industry as it goes) would you not want to get the best position possible as quick as possible? Anyone that says no is a LIAR pure and simple. Power to those that take the risk and get to where they want to FAST! Anyone that does, power to them also, but don't be bitter towards those that get to where they want to go faster than you.

When I was working in the finance as a financial trader, I saw many get the job as a result of knowing someone on the inside. I got mine though had work and a University degree. Am I bitter at those people? Not really, we ALL use our strengths (be it monetary or contacts) to get what we want done faster. Be it knowing the person at the mall, get you a discount or so, or knowing a nurse in ER and getting you sorted out faster than waiting in the queue......PACE is no different (but want to add, I don't diss the people that went to Gulfsteam either....as to be honest with you I think of them both as PFT - don't anyone dare disagree there. It is pure and simple PFT. But heck, who cares! If you think it'll help you take a short cut then take it! Power to you. taking calcualted short cuts is the difference between the pricks on here that 'paid their dues' (who gives a s***)-what shall we bring out out violins u frieghtdigs and CFI's?? (by the way I am a CFI, and am not on PACE) - though am considering it.
 
Re: thanks

Quick question similar to the topic at hand. Are companies like Air Vegas, where you are required to pay $5,000 for training to be a first officer on a BE-C99, put into the same category as places like Gulfstream? Or for that matter, banner tow places that make you pay for their training? Are these all considered pay for a job places that could potentially hurt you in the future? Or rather, are they considered legitimate jobs by everybody, but they have a small downside? Just curious!
 
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No offense but if the post is for Socalpilot why not pm him???

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In a forum like this, if one person has a question, there are 20 people with the same question that just didn't ask. If you have a comment that applies to someone, it'll probably benefit 20 people.

That's why we have public forums...otherwise, it would be easier and cheaper to have one long email list, and leave it at that!!
 
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