Time flying to the practice area

ScorpionStinger

ScorpionStinger

Well-Known Member
Just curious,

How much time is 'too much time' flying out to the practice area? What is normal? Example: Is 0.4 - 0.5 hobbs time normal?

Doesn't it takes away from PRACTICE opportunity? Shouldn't time flying to/from the practice area be a much Bigger piece of the pie (decision making) when selecting a flight school, academy, FBO, or training location; especially with the high cost of training today?

I don't hear much about this, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts...

Thanks in advance
 
So you must be contemplating training out of KPWK. All environments have their advantages/disadvantages. 0.5 is extreme, but it will make you an airspace/radio/navigation champ.
 
Scorpio11982 said:
Just curious,

How much time is 'too much time' flying out to the practice area? What is normal? Example: Is 0.4 - 0.5 hobbs time normal?
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Seems a bit much, but then again, how many flights should really entail a trip to the "practice area?" Not all that many, really.
 
When I did my private and commercial I did mine out of FCH in California and it would take us maybe .1 to get to the practice area. Did some time building at Boeing Field later on and getting out of that airspace took quite a while. I also did my commercial at a navy base and that took probably .3 flight time to get out of the area since it was a class C airport and everything to the west was water.
 
0.4--0.5 maybe from start up with a new student, if you are talking 0.5 from take off then that is way to much
 
Scorpio11982 said:
How much time is 'too much time' flying out to the practice area?
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The practice area is nothing more than a spot people might go to to practice some maneuvers. You should be making use of your entire flight. If for whatever practical local purposes you have a designated area you go to practice aerial maneuvers, then you shouldn't just be cruising along doing nothing on your way to and from. The trip to and from you can be practicing basic attitude instrument flying (if there's an instructor on board), you can be practicing climbs and descents and transitions to cruise. You can be practicing climbing turns (S turns) - good for coordination. You can be practicing emergency procedures - run through engine fires, electrical fires, engine failures. Practice holding headings and altitudes accurately while navigating visually. If there's some suitable areas, practice some ground reference maneuvers on the way out, S-turning down a road on your way out, and picking a series of pylons to do some turns around a point on your way out.

If you're just blowing through .3-.5 on your way out and back.... yikes, very inefficient use of time.
 
cezzna said:
So you must be contemplating training out of KPWK. All environments have their advantages/disadvantages. 0.5 is extreme, but it will make you an airspace/radio/navigation champ.
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I fly out of KPWK and during my initial training it did get frustrating to fly 15-20mins to the practice area but in those 20 mins, there is so much stuff happening such as managing the different layers of ORD bravo, traffic, etc that it was a great learning experience.
 
Jonathanf4 said:
I fly out of KPWK and during my initial training it did get frustrating to fly 15-20mins to the practice area but in those 20 mins, there is so much stuff happening such as managing the different layers of ORD bravo, traffic, etc that it was a great learning experience.
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Yikes, that sounds horrible. For the amount of time and money that one would spend on exiting and entering the practice area, one could use it to fly a few cross countries into airports and airspace that might present a challenge. It's not worth it IMHO.
 
Where our school is, proficiently, it shouldn't take more than 0.2-0.3 to get out to the practice area from engine start up. New students can take up to 0.4-0.6 to get out there...

I always make that time useful from takeoff to established in the practice area. Whether it be practicing straight and level, emergency procedures, navigation, discussing the manuevers we will be doing in the practice area, or quizzing the student over airspace. Beginning students are usually buried in work trying to figure out everything on their way to the practice area so the time goes by quick. More of the advanced students doing commercial work, like to pick the closest practice areas.
 
JYO is the same, but I've found that my CFI uses the time wisely to teach a lot of ground reference and pilotage along the way.

At JYO, you're under the Dulles class B, plus dealing with noise sensitive areas, uneven terrain and clearing a ridge to the practice area. It is, in my opinion, a safe but challenging area for a student.

Disclaimer: I'm not a CFI, but I am a ppl who relies on one from time to time and I like to know how he thinks. Helps us communicate.
 
I understand, for basic PPL and Inst students. Strt&lvl, turns etc. But most schools take you out of the Class B,C,D airspace before practicing any maneuvers. Yea your busy doing stuff, like 1,000ft/cruise checklist etc. Still, sometimes i think it's a squeeze as much $$$ out as possible for some.

Yes coordinating with ATC/Approach on your way out plausible and perhaps at times difficult. Yet, I still think most flight school have a SOP that you don't practice any COMM/PPL maneuvers till your in designated Practice Areas. Usually 5-10 miles outside the B,C,D airspace.

I'm looking at this from a Student/Instructor bang for your bucks perspective. Curious to ways to save students money without comprising safety, nor breaking reg's.

I know these Time Building CFI's love these transition to practice area time and take advantage of it (forgetting they once were broke students).

Example: Say practice area 'A' is West of airfield, and practice area 'B' is East of airfield)

I once had a CFI tell me to take him to practice area 'A' (West of airfield) so we could practice COMM maneuvers. On the way/transition there I heard a lot of radio chatter from Approach (flight following) and aircrafts in the area, and how busy it was in area 'A'. Even ATC said the area was busy. I said to CFI, "ok it sounds incredibly busier than normal in practice area 'A', let go to area 'B' (which is East of airfield, in the opposite direction). There wasn't much traffic in area 'B' from previous report. CFI said no, let's continue on to area 'A' if it looks too busy then we'll go back to area 'B' (which is the complete opposite direction!). We arrived in the area, and It was busy, we were playing dodge ball and couldn't even set up for any maneuvers. CFI then say's, "yea ahh, so let's go back to area B to practice these maneuvers, at least we know there's less traffic there." I will never forget my thoughts of him after that moment! Hobbs at this point was easily btw 0.8 and 1.0. When he said let's go to area 'B' I said ok. I cunningly asked on the way back towards the airport (practice area 'B' is East of airfield) if we could practice a light maneuver or 2, like stall, a steep turn or something, Half a Chandel or something. Just something. He said ok, I did them very well he said. We got close to airfield, and I told him I'd like to get back on the ground and don't feel like going to Practice area 'B' or doing any maneuvers. We landed.

Sorry, not on my dime. Complex time & instructor fee's aren't cheap! The objective is to practice maneuvers to standards and beyond standards, not burn holes in the sky.
 
@ Scorpio11982

Looking at it from a safety perspective, there are very good reasons why you should practice maneuvers well outside of class D, C and B airspace. The closer that you are to heavily frequented airspace, the greater your chances are that you could collide with other traffic. Not every aircraft has a TCAS or ADS-B system too, and it's not ATC's responsibility to separate all VFR and IFR traffic from one another at all times, everywhere. Look at this way...it only takes one strike to turn your aircraft to scrape, and the odds are that you will not survive such a happenstance, should it occur. Don't gamble on your safety--practice maneuvers well outside of such airspace, and always do clearing turns. 5-15 miles often will be enough a "buffer" to give you time to spot other traffic around most airports.

As to your second point, it's wholly possible that some CFIs are milking you for as much time and $ as they can get out of you. I know that I've been milked at one point, and it makes me mad as heck when I find out that it's being done....
 
FoodStampsPilot said:
@ Scorpio11982

Looking at it from a safety perspective, there are very good reasons why you should practice maneuvers well outside of class D, C and B airspace. The closer that you are to heavily frequented airspace, the greater your chances are that you could collide with other traffic. Not every aircraft has a TCAS or ADS-B system too, and it's not ATC's responsibility to separate all VFR and IFR traffic from one another at all times, everywhere. Look at this way...it only takes one strike to turn your aircraft to scrape, and the odds are that you will not survive such a happenstance, should it occur. Don't gamble on your safety--practice maneuvers well outside of such airspace, and always do clearing turns. 5-15 miles often will be enough a "buffer" to give you time to spot other traffic around most airports.
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I wholly agree with you 101%
 
In Daytona it could take you that just to get off the ground, then more to get to the practice area. I flew out of an airport near there and was at the practice area within 5-10 minutes. I don't want to spend all my time sitting on the ground waiting to take off for sure. If you have an option go with the FBO that isn't at a busy airport.
 
I take 5 minutes to make a "game plan" with my student before leaving the ground and I brief with them about everything we are going to do and what I expect from them each flight. I think this is a very important part of a flight that saves the student money and a lot of people seem to overlook. That being said, once I have taught the student all the maneuvers, I usually do lessons of about 1.2 on the hobbs that include everything. Power on stall on climb out, clearing turns then slow flight directly into a power off stall, steep turns, simulated engine out, 1 or 2 ground reference maneuvers then usually 4 or 5 touch n go's. Its easy not to waste time when you have a gameplan.
 
rframe said:
The practice area is nothing more than a spot people might go to to practice some maneuvers. You should be making use of your entire flight. If for whatever practical local purposes you have a designated area you go to practice aerial maneuvers, then you shouldn't just be cruising along doing nothing on your way to and from. The trip to and from you can be practicing basic attitude instrument flying (if there's an instructor on board), you can be practicing climbs and descents and transitions to cruise. You can be practicing climbing turns (S turns) - good for coordination. You can be practicing emergency procedures - run through engine fires, electrical fires, engine failures. Practice holding headings and altitudes accurately while navigating visually. If there's some suitable areas, practice some ground reference maneuvers on the way out, S-turning down a road on your way out, and picking a series of pylons to do some turns around a point on your way out.

If you're just blowing through .3-.5 on your way out and back.... yikes, very inefficient use of time.
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What he said. I instructed out of BWI for a while and got pretty good at making use of all available time. Throw them under the hood, introduce cross country type navigation, slow flight, etc. Pretty easy actually.
 
At UND it was at LEAST 30 minutes to the practice area, especially between 10A.M. and 2P.M. I've seen it take an hour from block out to wheels up before.

If you were lucky and got a closer practice area, it'd only be about 15 minutes from takeoff, but you're sill talking a 10-15 minute taxi/hold short. God forbid you had to go all the way to Thief River Falls in a Warrior. 2.5 hour lesson if dispatch let you keep a plane that long. I usually did mini-briefings while sitting on the ground/enroute about whatever came to mind. "Hey, why is that tower painted red and white, and that one isn't?" That kind of thing. Maneuvering while traversing over the closer practice areas to get to yours was/is a big no no.

So, I would say it depends on how busy it is in your area. As others have pointed out, you can still use that time.
 
UAL747400 said:
At UND it was at LEAST 30 minutes to the practice area, especially between 10A.M. and 2P.M. I've seen it take an hour from block out to wheels up before.

If you were lucky and got a closer practice area, it'd only be about 15 minutes from takeoff, but you're sill talking a 10-15 minute taxi/hold short. God forbid you had to go all the way to Thief River Falls in a Warrior. 2.5 hour lesson if dispatch let you keep a plane that long. I usually did mini-briefings while sitting on the ground/enroute about whatever came to mind. "Hey, why is that tower painted red and white, and that one isn't?" That kind of thing. Maneuvering while traversing over the closer practice areas to get to yours was/is a big no no.

So, I would say it depends on how busy it is in your area. As others have pointed out, you can still use that time.
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That reminds me of when I went on an observer ride at Riddle. It was at least 0.5 to wheels up after the strictly enforced 2kt taxi and then being number 20 something for takeoff behind all the lines of cessnas for every single intersection departure on both parallel runways. Holy guacamole. I guess it teaches you how to hurry up and wait. :eek2:
 
UAL747400 said:
At UND it was at LEAST 30 minutes to the practice area, especially between 10A.M. and 2P.M. I've seen it take an hour from block out to wheels up before.

If you were lucky and got a closer practice area, it'd only be about 15 minutes from takeoff, but you're sill talking a 10-15 minute taxi/hold short. God forbid you had to go all the way to Thief River Falls in a Warrior. 2.5 hour lesson if dispatch let you keep a plane that long. I usually did mini-briefings while sitting on the ground/enroute about whatever came to mind. "Hey, why is that tower painted red and white, and that one isn't?" That kind of thing. Maneuvering while traversing over the closer practice areas to get to yours was/is a big no no.

So, I would say it depends on how busy it is in your area. As others have pointed out, you can still use that time.
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There is no policy at UND that says you cannot do maneuvers while flying to your assigned practice area. Approach may get a little confused if you end up pointed back to GFK, but other than that, you can do whatever you want on the way to the practice area. CFIs who don't do this are not effectively managing time. Obviously some maneuvers like ground ref are best done in the practice area.
 
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