Time flying to the practice area

[Blackhawk]

I was going to ask what the deal is- is the CFI doing the flying back and forth to the practice area? If not, why is the student not practicing something enroute? Slow flight? Hood work? Throw in a steep turn or two? Really... are CFIs that lazy that they can't think about this for themselves? This is not rocket science. The time wasted in an aircraft is the time that a CFI is not doing his/her job.

 

[A150K]

I was going to ask what the deal is- is the CFI doing the flying back and forth to the practice area? If not, why is the student not practicing something enroute? Slow flight? Hood work? Throw in a steep turn or two? Really... are CFIs that lazy that they can't think about this for themselves? This is not rocket science. The time wasted in an aircraft is the time that a CFI is not doing his/her job.

Personally, I always pull their engine on the way back from the practice area right when they think they're done for the day

 

[Tommay85]

As someone who's almost had a midair with someone doing that exact thing, it's not the safest thing in the world.

 

[Blackhawk]

As someone who's almost had a midair with someone doing that exact thing, it's not the safest thing in the world.

What? Training is not the safest thing?

 

[Tommay85]

Whatever... FYI the GFK area is busier than the majority of the country between the hours of 10 and 2. 2400 operations in one day isn't unheard of on a busy day. The majority aren't leaving either like a Bravo, they stay within 50 miles. YMMV, but I preferred cruising to the practice area and keeping our eyes outside. I never had a student go over the TCO requirements, so what's the problem?

 

[Blackhawk]

Whatever... FYI the GFK area is busier than the majority of the country between the hours of 10 and 2. 2400 operations in one day isn't unheard of on a busy day. The majority aren't leaving either like a Bravo, they stay within 50 miles. YMMV, but I preferred cruising to the practice area and keeping our eyes outside. I never had a student go over the TCO requirements, so what's the problem?

You mean your eyes are not outside during training, only while in cruise flight???? And your practice area does NOT have aircraft buzzing around????

Don't whine to me about busy airspace. Really? Cairns Army Airfield in the 1980s/90's. So many aircraft doing IFR training that clearance delivery came on the radio at a certain time and started reading off buzz numbers and their clearances. Heaven help the student who was not quick enough to get their clearance the first time as it meant waiting until they were done and then trying to jump in. It was busier than O'Hare and Hartsfield, all student pilots. And there were numerous other airfields in the area all launching aircraft at the same exact times.

If you can't do your job and teach, do something else.but don't rip off students by wasting their time.

 

[rocketman5150]

Just curious,

How much time is 'too much time' flying out to the practice area? What is normal? Example: Is 0.4 - 0.5 hobbs time normal?

Doesn't it takes away from PRACTICE opportunity? Shouldn't time flying to/from the practice area be a much Bigger piece of the pie (decision making) when selecting a flight school, academy, FBO, or training location; especially with the high cost of training today?

I don't hear much about this, so I'm curious to hear your thoughts...

Thanks in advance

An instructor shared an interesting point of view on this topic. He encouraged his students to train in 172's instead of 152's. His reasoning was that, while a 152 was less expensive to rent, it's lower performance took away from meaninful lesson time. You spend more time climbing to altitude, getting to the practice area, and generally taking longer to do everything. The 172 cost more to rent, but its higher performance allowed for more learning during a typical lesson.

I imagine this is somewhat dependent on the cost differential. At the time, the 172 only cost $3 more per hour to rent.

 

[write-stuff]

Regardless of the distance, use time flying out to the practice area learning unique landmarks and locations. This will likely be your "backyard" once you're flying solo. It's good to know it like the "back of your hand."

 

[FAYEV]

Regardless of the distance, use time flying out to the practice area learning unique landmarks and locations. This will likely be your "backyard" once you're flying solo. It's good to know it like the "back of your hand."

As I alluded to earlier, it depends on the situation as to whether we will do maneuvers on the way to the practice area or not. With a Student Pilot whose first language is Chinese, depending on how far away the practice area is, we probably won't do maneuvers because they are too busy trying to figure out where they are (which is a very valuable use of their time at this stage). With a Commercial student, different story. Referring to UAL747400's point, if there's 4 airplanes buzzing around me in the practice area that I am transitioning through to get to our assigned practice area, then yes I would be less inclined to do certain maneuvers with the understanding that those airplanes have more of a right to be maneuvering there than I do and, out of respect, I should try to stay out of their way.

 

[Tommay85]

You mean your eyes are not outside during training, only while in cruise flight???? And your practice area does NOT have aircraft buzzing around????

Don't whine to me about busy airspace. Really? Cairns Army Airfield in the 1980s/90's. So many aircraft doing IFR training that clearance delivery came on the radio at a certain time and started reading off buzz numbers and their clearances. Heaven help the student who was not quick enough to get their clearance the first time as it meant waiting until they were done and then trying to jump in. It was busier than O'Hare and Hartsfield, all student pilots. And there were numerous other airfields in the area all launching aircraft at the same exact times.

If you can't do your job and teach, do something else.but don't rip off students by wasting their time.

Non of my students went over TCO requirements. So the problem is what exactly?

Sorry my preference of cruising to the practice area is so offensive to you

 

[Blackhawk]

Non of my students went over TCO requirements. So the problem is what exactly?

Sorry my preference of cruising to the practice area is so offensive to you

Wasting their time. You are still spending time in the airplane being lazy and using the lame excuse of "keeping eyes outside" to not teach. Again, please tell me- what is the difference between keeping eyes outside enroute and outside In a training area? There should be no difference.

 

[usphsfnp]

Yup, you can totally utilize your time to and from the practice area for good use. Our area is generally a little outside of the class D, so it doesn't take long to get there, but there's plenty of quizzing to do along the way. "What airspace are we in now?" "How do you know?" "What are the cloud clearance requirements here?" etc.

 

[JFlighttt]

Out here under O'hares Bravo kind of sucks but if you're going to take .4/.5 to get to the training area then I would say have a long enough training lesson (1.0-2.0) in that area because if you keep taking .5 to get out there, after a few lessons it'll be .5 .5 .5 .5... so mine as well get the most out in the area with your student while you can, unless you're trying to get as much time as you can, then hell, tell the student to slow flight to the training area.

 

[Stomp16]

Wasting their time. You are still spending time in the airplane being lazy and using the lame excuse of "keeping eyes outside" to not teach. Again, please tell me- what is the difference between keeping eyes outside enroute and outside In a training area? There should be no difference.

You're kind of jumping on him for no reason. He did state that he never had a student go over TCO time. Also, how do you know he's wasting time and being lazy? Were you in the airplane with him? I think not, therefore your statements are invalid. You can have a discussion without getting all butt-hurt and attacking someone. Sounds like you got ripped off by an instructor or two in your time, don't take that out on others.

 

[Blackhawk]

You're kind of jumping on him for no reason. He did state that he never had a student go over TCO time. Also, how do you know he's wasting time and being lazy? Were you in the airplane with him? I think not, therefore your statements are invalid. You can have a discussion without getting all butt-hurt and attacking someone. Sounds like you got ripped off by an instructor or two in your time, don't take that out on others.

I am basing my statement on what he wrote- that it is dangerous to do training enroute to a training area because your heads are in the cockpit rather than scanning. So it was his implication that training enrote is too dangerous that made me conclude he is NOT training while entoute. Again, what is the difference between a scan in cruise and a scan while trainingy?
Second, I don't care if he gets his students under TCO. Is he in the airplane and charging the students or is the flight/instruction time enroute gratis? If the students are paying him to teach then he needs to teach and not waste their time. I would give the same challenge to ANY CFI who wastes time in an aircraft.
I recently had a sports coach ask me how I turned a team around from no wins last year to being on the verge of winning a division state title with basically the same players. I told him we do not waste time. The players are touching a ball from the moment they step onto the training field to the moment they finish. Warming up? Cradling a ball. Sprinting at the end of practice? Cradling a ball. Getting water? Cradle a ball. I don't waste their time or have them standing in lines and they are learning every moment of every practice. Coaching is nothing more than teaching and uses the same concepts.

 

[will_fly_for_bandwith]

At sarasota you can budget .4 each way. But on the way out I practice rudder aileron , power elevator coordination and slow flight.
Get creative, asking the student to give you heading, time and fuel burn to a nearby airport can burn .2 easy.

 

[Stomp16]

I am basing my statement on what he wrote- that it is dangerous to do training enroute to a training area because your heads are in the cockpit rather than scanning. So it was his implication that training enrote is too dangerous that made me conclude he is NOT training while entoute. Again, what is the difference between a scan in cruise and a scan while trainingy?
Second, I don't care if he gets his students under TCO. Is he in the airplane and charging the students or is the flight/instruction time enroute gratis? If the students are paying him to teach then he needs to teach and not waste their time. I would give the same challenge to ANY CFI who wastes time in an aircraft.
I recently had a sports coach ask me how I turned a team around from no wins last year to being on the verge of winning a division state title with basically the same players. I told him we do not waste time. The players are touching a ball from the moment they step onto the training field to the moment they finish. Warming up? Cradling a ball. Sprinting at the end of practice? Cradling a ball. Getting water? Cradle a ball. I don't waste their time or have them standing in lines and they are learning every moment of every practice. Coaching is nothing more than teaching and uses the same concepts.

Fair points, I can see how you'd come about your conclusions. That being said, you were coming off as some know-it-all and jumping down his throat without really needing too. Fact is, neither you nor I were in the airplane with him and factual statements about his teaching style can not be made. You can make assumptions until you're blue in the face, but factual statements, no. Now, I am far from the forum police, but it seems like you might get a bit more of a constructive discussion if you slow your roll a bit.

Looking back on my former instructors, I can definitely see those who were there to milk the clock and those who really wanted to teach. Despite who it was, it was not uncommon to get to .5 before you even took off, sometimes even higher depending on the traffic flow, the foreign student who needs his clearance to podunk OK repeated 6 times and tower not allowing departures until the pilot on their first solo finally found the airport to land. Then when we'd finally taxi out, we were the 11th 152/172 in line to depart. Personally, I finally got tired of all of that and scheduled my flights at 6am when no one else wanted to fly. To say that I wasn't learning during that time though would be false. Anytime the aircraft is running, there is learning going on whether intentional or not.

 

[Blackhawk]

Fair points, I can see how you'd come about your conclusions. That being said, you were coming off as some know-it-all and jumping down his throat without really needing too. Fact is, neither you nor I were in the airplane with him and factual statements about his teaching style can not be made. You can make assumptions until you're blue in the face, but factual statements, no. Now, I am far from the forum police, but it seems like you might get a bit more of a constructive discussion if you slow your roll a bit.

Looking back on my former instructors, I can definitely see those who were there to milk the clock and those who really wanted to teach. Despite who it was, it was not uncommon to get to .5 before you even took off, sometimes even higher depending on the traffic flow, the foreign student who needs his clearance to podunk OK repeated 6 times and tower not allowing departures until the pilot on their first solo finally found the airport to land. Then when we'd finally taxi out, we were the 11th 152/172 in line to depart. Personally, I finally got tired of all of that and scheduled my flights at 6am when no one else wanted to fly. To say that I wasn't learning during that time though would be false. Anytime the aircraft is running, there is learning going on whether intentional or not.

Frankly, I don't care if he takes anything from it or you do and I will call a spade a spade. Don't like it? Block me. Don't read me. That's fine with me. I've been teaching military and civilian for... one or two years... and I'm tired of instructors wasting the time/money of students. No one is perfect, but to say instruction can not take place enroute to a training area is just silly and indicative of laziness.

 

[Stomp16]

Frankly, I don't care if he takes anything from it or you do and I will call a spade a spade. Don't like it? Block me. Don't read me. That's fine with me. I've been teaching military and civilian for... one or two years... and I'm tired of instructors wasting the time/money of students. No one is perfect, but to say instruction can not take place enroute to a training area is just silly and indicative of laziness.

I was actually trying to have a rational discussion. No reason to block you or whatnot, just stating my opinion as you did yours. You seem to have this me vs the world attitude going.

 

[Blackhawk]

I was actually trying to have a rational discussion. No reason to block you or whatnot, just stating my opinion as you did yours. You seem to have this me vs the world attitude going.

No, you guys just seem to want some warm and fuzzies. Just a by-product of the "everyone gets a medal" "Lake Wobegon Generation". Heaven forbid if someone is criticized or told how to improve. Which get's me to another rant- CFI's who just sit there and don't teach. Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings you know. When in the world did THIS start????
If you want a warm and fuzzy I attached an image for you. You can order this so in the future when you feel hurt by something someone writes on the internet you can hug it.