Thunderstorms, how do you do it?

cmill said:
best advice i ever got, especially when trying to penetrate what appears to be a solid line in a light GA plane: "Aim for the bright spots."

Came from a guy who had been instructing/flying for about 60 years, and wast exactly what you would call a wx sissy. His idea of a "bright spot" was a shade slightly lighter than pitch black, but it kept him alive, so i would tend to believe it.
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Trying to penetrate a line of thunderstorms in a LIGHT GA Plane? Does anyone else see an issue with that sentence in the first place? :)
 
kellwolf said:
If you adhered to the 20 mile rule, you'd never get off the ground in Florida during the summer. :)
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:yup: roger.

stay below the weather and use your eyes. they are the best radar money can buy. deviate around the heavy precip and pick your way through. if it gets too rough, land and wait it out a bit. gotta love summer time in FL.
 
meyers9163 said:
Trying to penetrate a line of thunderstorms in a LIGHT GA Plane? Does anyone else see an issue with that sentence in the first place? :)
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I would call something like a 210 light ga, hell, a kingair could be considered GA, but i would consider it a little bit heavier. :)


Never mind that though. Its completely unsafe under any circumstances, regardless of the fact he made it to the old age of 92. Im sure he just got lucky, like southwest, eh? ;)
 
cmill said:
I would call something like a 210 light ga, hell, a kingair could be considered GA, but i would consider it a little bit heavier. :)


Never mind that though. Its completely unsafe under any circumstances, regardless of the fact he made it to the old age of 92. Im sure he just got lucky, like southwest, eh? ;)
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92 or not.... Trying to penetrate a thunderstorm that is clearly defined in any GA airplane sounds crazy. Thus the reason for the 20nm rule. Cargo or not I'm not doing it. But that's me. I rather park the plane and play another day then dare to dance and never see the light of day again....
 
meyers9163 said:
92 or not.... Trying to penetrate a thunderstorm that is clearly defined in any GA airplane sounds crazy. Thus the reason for the 20nm rule. Cargo or not I'm not doing it. But that's me. I rather park the plane and play another day then dare to dance and never see the light of day again....
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Well judging from the other replies, i guess there's quite a few crazy people on here that know how to pick their way through storms. Either that or what you call crazy others call a way of life.

Some of us aren't in a shiny jet with the option of deviating 100 miles. We have customers waiting on there crap, and an extra 45 minutes means we don't get paid for the day. Believe it or not, there is a world out side of an airline, outside of unions, and outside of an RJ cockpit where shait just has to get done.

And no, before you go there, its not worth risking ones life for the sake of the mission. I'll be the first one to call in and say FU if i don't think its safe. Just because you might see a what looks like a solid line on radar doesn't make it so. Holes are easy to find, just gotta look for them.

I'm not trying to school anyone, or say that this is the only way to do it. I just don't like being called crazy because I don't always adhere to the 20NM "rule."
 
 
wheelsup said:
I don't necessarily agree with it (for the reason you give), but the CA's that deviate around that stuff are doing it for "passenger comfort" over thinking it's actually a thunderstorm.

I'd actually like to hear from a controller if deviating around that small stuff really messes things up or not.
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Controller here, often times the hardest times we have with deviating aircraft are not when the big cells are around it is when there are little cells are around. When the big cells are moving through deviations are expected and as such the traffic is regulated so as to allow it. When the little cells are around in a terminal environment and traffic is heavy it gets crazy because you have 5-10 planes fly through a level 1 cloud and it seems alright then one plane won't fly through it and everyone else doesn't want to until you have another plane come along 5 planes later who doesn't see it as a problem and he fly through it tying up with the five who went on a 60 mile scenic tour around three clouds.

The other problem I have is when pilots wait til the last second to decide they need a deviation and of course it is always more than 45 degrees. There are corridors where aircraft are only three to five miles on either side from someone elses airspace with opposite direction aircraft at the same altitude. Last second deviations do not give us much time to coordinate with the other controllers so you don't end up sharing the same airspace with a B777. If you can give us a heads up that you will need vectors around the weather 30 miles ahead. Chances are we know and can work something out. But not saying anything until the last minute may lead us to believe you are ok with flying through a certain cloud and we plan accordingly. A last second deviation screws that plan up.
 
I'm bored on standby, so here's what I have - You'll see a lot of "typically" and "usually" because no generalizations are ever 100% true. (Disclaimer for the people who say "you must be 20nm away at all times": I never fly through or really close to a thunderstorm if I can avoid it. I never put myself in a situation in where there is no way out, and I'll land before I endanger myself. Realize there are situations where I can safely go in a freight airplane that would not be safe for a pax operation simply because I don't have to worry about "the ride" or people standing in the aisles. Cargo don't complain, after all.)

Preflight: This is very important, it gives you the 'big picture'

Take a look at the radar,
Where are the tops? Above FL300 has a much greater chance of being a severe storm.

Are the gaps closing or opening? If closing, are there ways around the whole system, or can you stop on the ground and wait for it to blow over?

Are there a bunch of "pop-up" storms that fade away almost as quickly as they arrive? Typically this is easy to fly around.

Is there a line? If yes, are there gaps in the line, how big are they, and are they opening or closing? Southern cells in a line are typically more severe, avoid those.

What is the history of the storm, is it in the building or dissipating stage? If it's raining itself out (becoming a weaker echo, with lower tops) it's usually much smoother to fly through, and may be gone before you get there.

Which way do you go if it gets bad?

Check pireps, tafs, lifted/k, etc. for an idea of what the forecasters think will happen. Realize who's giving the pirep. Freight dog saying "moderate turbulence?" It'll be bumpy.
Where are the fronts, where is the whole system moving?

If you can top the storm or stay below the bases, you've got a great chance at getting through. Ask any pilots you know who came from that direction. In flight you can also query ATC to see if anyone has been through where you're going.

Approaching a storm:

Ask ATC what they see, and/or if there's a way around.

How does it look? Dark and foreboding? Lots of vertical development? Very dark rain shaft? Very frequent lightning strikes? - Bad news

Look at the radar if you have it.
Can you paint the ground behind the storm? If yes, it probably isn't too bad.

Does the storm have a very steep gradient (green-yellow-red spaced very close together?) and does it boomerang towards you? - Bad news, go somewhere else. Very oddly-shaped storms are also usually more severe.
(As an aside when you're painting the ground make sure you don't see a lake or ocean and assume it's a "shadow," bodies of water show up as black on the screen.)

Use your eyes. Flying towards the lighter spots will usually be safer and a smoother ride. If you can stay below the cloud deck and avoid heavy rain shafts, you can pick your way through almost anything with very few bumps.

If you get caught in a storm
SLOW DOWN to turbulence penetration speed prior to the storm if it looks at all like you might be in for a ride. Tighten your seat belt, keep the attitude level, and don't worry about altitude deviations if it's really bad - ask for a block. Don't turn around, it's usually quicker to go straight ahead and the increased load on the aircraft from turning can get you in trouble. Keep your eyes on the instruments until the danger has passed.

Stay away from the freezing level, 15 degrees C on either side of it is safer.

Using radar:
Below 15k - take your height in AGL and divide it in two then divide by 1000 (IE 7000 agl = 3.5). Paint the ground so there's a solid line 20nm out, then tilt up by what you found above. So, if you're at -1 degree at 7000 agl, go to +2.5 degrees. This will bring the lower part of the beam level with the ground. If you see anything, tilt up and down to see if it's a storm or ground clutter.
If you're above 15k, paint the ground at double your altitude (FL350, paint the ground 70nm away). Again, use tilt to identify what you're painting. A shadow is when a storm is so strong it absorbs all radar energy, you'll see a steep gradient followed by what looks like a hole. Don't go that way.

This is what I use when flying around weather, your mileage may vary, no warranty is expressed or implied, etc. etc. I'm sure I missed quite a few things, but I wanted to give a better insight to people who don't have weather experience. Hope it helps.
 
 
boondr said:
Controller here, often times the hardest times we have with deviating aircraft are not when the big cells are around it is when there are little cells are around. When the big cells are moving through deviations are expected and as such the traffic is regulated so as to allow it. When the little cells are around in a terminal environment and traffic is heavy it gets crazy because you have 5-10 planes fly through a level 1 cloud and it seems alright then one plane won't fly through it and everyone else doesn't want to until you have another plane come along 5 planes later who doesn't see it as a problem and he fly through it tying up with the five who went on a 60 mile scenic tour around three clouds.

The other problem I have is when pilots wait til the last second to decide they need a deviation and of course it is always more than 45 degrees. There are corridors where aircraft are only three to five miles on either side from someone elses airspace with opposite direction aircraft at the same altitude. Last second deviations do not give us much time to coordinate with the other controllers so you don't end up sharing the same airspace with a B777. If you can give us a heads up that you will need vectors around the weather 30 miles ahead. Chances are we know and can work something out. But not saying anything until the last minute may lead us to believe you are ok with flying through a certain cloud 1nd we plan accordingly. A last second deviation screws that plan up.
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That's some really good info! I have always been the 10* change for a while kinda person but most CA's like to fly right up to the storm and make hard turns. The being said sometimes we don't know if we need to deviate until we get closer, the radar gets more accurate the closer you get in our small aircraft.
 
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