Thunderstorms, how do you do it?

dr650

dr650

Well-Known Member
As a pilot of small general aviation aircraft I have always been told the 'stay 20 miles away' rule and adhere strictly to that. However, I'm aware that the airlines/corporate aviation tend to get a little closer, in some cases a lot closer. I'm just wondering what the usual process is when coming into an airport with scattered/isolated TS. I listen on liveatc.net occasionally and I'm amazed at how the pilots pick theire way through. Is it mostly a reliance on, on board weather avoidance in the cockpit? or ATC? both? Also if do you just avoid flying through the red on the radar screen but still penetrate yellow and green? just curious, thanks.
 
fly until you start hitting your head on the ceiling from all the turbulence, then maybe....request a vector to get out.
 
I'm a 135 freight pilot and fit into the 'a lot closer' category. The first key to thunderstorm avoidance is extremely simple: use your eyes. If you can see a thunderstorm 100 miles away, when you finally get there, just drive around it. When I first started flying freight I had no radar, no xm weather, and just my eyes and whatever center could tell me (I also had the luxury of following a fedex feeder caravan a lot, so I got a lot of help from them over their company frequency). It actually works out pretty good most of the time. When you start getting into embedded thunderstorms you start running into a few more issues. The perk... you can usually at least see the rainshafts if you're down low. Again, just drive around them. The aircraft I'm flying now I fly higher (a metroliner) so flying around rainshafts is usually more difficult (although a number of times I have requested down to 5-6000 feet and done it the old fashioned way). If the radar is not MEL'd you can use that to pick your way through stuff pretty good. I don't usually have the luxury of all those fancy colors... just the good ol' green screen radar. But, if you put it in WxA and it starts flashing a lot, I don't plow through it. Green screen radars are actually pretty good. You can get the picture pretty good and what it paints is usually strong enough where you don't want to fly through it. Also, I have a 396 with xm. It's nice for the big picture, but the weather is 6 plus minutes old and isn't the best tool for picking through weather. It's a lot better than nothing but it's still easy enough to find yourself in the middle of a thunderstorm when relying solely on the xm.

Honestly, combine the 3: radar, eyes, and xm and you have a pretty good system. But, with those tools, I've still ended up plowing through a few thunderstorms in my day. I've been lucky and have never taken a lightning strike but have had my fair share of turbulence, rain, and some lightning that was really really close. If that does happen just slow up and keep going straight. It's not the end of the world if you end up in a thunderstorm (I know people have died flying through thunderstorms... but just as many have died in ice flying airplanes with boots, so don't freak out too bad if you end up in one... you'll most likely be fine). That being said, don't plow through them for fun (although I know of a number of people that do... most are freight drivers).

I only have flown 91 and 135... I believe the 121 pilots usually play it more conservative.
 
MOONWOLF said:
fly until you start hitting your head on the ceiling from all the turbulence, then maybe....request a vector to get out.
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Well, usually we just let ATC know we are turning left or right for weather around here. Not much point requesting something you are going to do anyway.

Not unless you like saying "unable" a lot.
 
Mostly with your eyes and if they are embedded then we use the radar. Usually if its an isolated storm and we can see it from a long ways out we can usually just ask to get direct to another fix or just go 5 degrees right or left to keep clear of it. If you are climbing or descending usually ATC will let you deviate as necessary. Then you just hand fly it and drive it through the gaps and around the nasty clouds.

I wouldn't want to go screaming through a TS at 300 knots in the stiff as a board 145.
 
SoCalAprch said:
Mostly with your eyes and if they are embedded then we use the radar. Usually if its an isolated storm and we can see it from a long ways out we can usually just ask to get direct to another fix or just go 5 degrees right or left to keep clear of it. If you are climbing or descending usually ATC will let you deviate as necessary. Then you just hand fly it and drive it through the gaps and around the nasty clouds.

I wouldn't want to go screaming through a TS at 300 knots in the stiff as a board 145.
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Pretty much what I was going to say.....We usually see the buildups visually, and then check it out on radar. Most of the time we can either fly through small holes or skirt around the edge of it. If its really bad then we will just request a different route or fix.
 
SoCalAprch said:
Mostly with your eyes and if they are embedded then we use the radar. Usually if its an isolated storm and we can see it from a long ways out we can usually just ask to get direct to another fix or just go 5 degrees right or left to keep clear of it.
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ATC has a pretty good idea where the weather is, not because they can see it, but because everyone else is asking for vectors around it.

Also, it depends a bit on how developed the storms are. In some cases, you can just go over them (well, that won't happen much in a piston single).

If they are bad, you'll hear plenty of whining about the ride from the airlines well before it gets dangerous.

At least around here (Florida), the generally unstable air that is favorable to thunderstorm formation is also gives good visibility. It is rarely IMC about 6000' here when thunderstorms are forecast. The dew point spread typically gives you cumulus clouds from 3000-6000 feet through most of the summer.
 
ATC can see it but they don't know how high it is. ATC reports "heavy to moderate precipitation in the vicinity of your route" all the time but usually when were cruising at FL300 and higher it is all beneath you.
 
SoCalAprch said:
ATC can see it but they don't know how high it is. ATC reports "heavy to moderate precipitation in the vicinity of your route" all the time but usually when were cruising at FL300 and higher it is all beneath you.
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That's because the majority of it above FL250 or so is frozen, so it doesn't reflect.
 
It's not too bad. It's easy to call everything a TS sometimes. Sometimes the buildup is rain and no TS, I think that's the misconception that we all fly "real close" to thunderstorms. Gotta actually have some lightning for me to avoid. IF you can do it, 135 piston, stay in the positive temperatures and below the bases (or go around the buildups, just try to stay clear as possible). Helps you see the lightning and the rain, and you are less likely to be hit.
 
d_mckerrow06 said:
As a pilot of small general aviation aircraft I have always been told the 'stay 20 miles away' rule and adhere strictly to that. However, I'm aware that the airlines/corporate aviation tend to get a little closer, in some cases a lot closer. I'm just wondering what the usual process is when coming into an airport with scattered/isolated TS. I listen on liveatc.net occasionally and I'm amazed at how the pilots pick theire way through. Is it mostly a reliance on, on board weather avoidance in the cockpit? or ATC? both? Also if do you just avoid flying through the red on the radar screen but still penetrate yellow and green? just curious, thanks.
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Like has been said, a combination of eyes and radar.

Just like most things in life, it's a combination of strategic and tactical planning. The earlier you start gathering information, the longer you can stay "strategic" and the less you are "tactical"

We run the radar full time at my operation, and usually at a distant range. When the storms are isolated, they're usually pretty easy to see. Big buggers far out there. Information to gather: Which way is the storm moving? Is it growing or dissipating? How does that compare with your planned route? Sometimes the best plan is to stay on course when others might be deviating, others you may want to ask for a fix down the line to stay away. In the US, ATC is a great resource. Other countries, they don't have information, you are responsible for not violating restricted areas and the airspace of other countries without permission.

Obviously the farther out you start gathering the information, the more time you have, and thus, more options.

From that point I make a plan (now, I run it by the Captain too, since it's more asking permission) if I'm flying. After we both discuss it, and get on the same page, off we go. As we get closer to the area of weather, we evaluate our plan. Is it working as expected, or do we need to adjust?

Again, the further out you start contemplating this (time wise) the better off you are, and the more flex you can have in your plan.

The entire time, we've been adjusting the radar range to increase the resolution of the storm. We can actually start to evaluate if it's a strong storm, or a weak one.

Then as we get real close, we switch to tactical mode. We have the radar active, and we're scaling up and down the ranges to look at what's right there, and what's waiting for us behind that. If our strategic planning was done well and there were no significant changes, then we might even get to skip this phase. Sometimes, though, you have to just go for it. You avoid the red like the plague. Using the radar is part science and part art. You may have the exact science to set your tilt and other parameters down. However, if you can't interpret the information it is presenting, it's about as useful as a football bat.
 
:yeahthat:

Great technique Martin...

While I don't advocate flying through big thunderstorms, I see pilots on a regular basis request deviations around weather that is mostly rain with very little vertical development. Obviously avoid the bad stuff, but realize that deviating around a raincloud with tops to 6 or 8 thousand feet really screws up arrivals and departures.

Referencing the question??? Daytime flying gives us good opportunities to see and avoid. If you do deviate, do so upwind (if able) so as to avoid the downwind perils. At night, You can navigate fairly accurately with your weather radar if you understand how to operate it properly. Adjusting gains and where to point the antenna takes a bit of practice.

Bottom line: If unsure of what's ahead, steer well clear of the big storms and use the assets and expertise of our ATC friends.
 
calcapt said:
While I don't advocate flying through big thunderstorms, I see pilots on a regular basis request deviations around weather that is mostly rain with very little vertical development.
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Yeah, well it may not be all that comfortable for passengers in a light piston, since that poorly developed CB that's raining buckets is still probably a bumpy ride...
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Yeah, well it may not be all that comfortable for passengers in a light piston, since that poorly developed CB that's raining buckets is still probably a bumpy ride...
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Don't disagree, but chances are if you are flying IFR on a rainy night, your chances of remaining clear of clouds and free from bumps is not all that great in the first place. I am talking mostly about 121 airline guys deviating around small stuff and the effect it has on the 25 guys following them to the airport.
 
calcapt said:
Don't disagree, but chances are if you are flying IFR on a rainy night, your chances of remaining clear of clouds and free from bumps is not all that great in the first place. I am talking mostly about 121 airline guys deviating around small stuff and the effect it has on the 25 guys following them to the airport.
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I don't necessarily agree with it (for the reason you give), but the CA's that deviate around that stuff are doing it for "passenger comfort" over thinking it's actually a thunderstorm.

I'd actually like to hear from a controller if deviating around that small stuff really messes things up or not.
 
Ernie Gann style...
...cinch down the seatbelts and crank the seats as low as they'll go so you don't hit your head and get knocked out, turn up the lights so you don't get blinded by lightning, slow down, ask for a block altitude, and plug on through. Then follow it up with a partial-panel NDB approach while someone holds lit matches in front of your eyes.
 
:yup: noted!

I had a Retired Airline Capt. from ASA who at the time was working at Flight Safety tell me that as long as the CB's aren't above FL240 you shouldn't have a problem but above that expect some serious s***

anyone else hear that, or was that just an old man babbling?
 
CFIT99 said:
I had a Retired Airline Capt. from ASA who at the time was working at Flight Safety tell me that as long as the CB's aren't above FL240 you shouldn't have a problem but above that expect some serious s***
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I go straight through them when they are under FL180
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I go straight through them when they are under FL180
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I try and give the folks as smooth a ride as I can. At 8-9 miles/minute deviating around storms adds little to no significant time to your route. The passengers are already nervous enough getting on the "little RJ's". No point in adding to their anxiety. Also, when the ride gets a little rough, SLOW DOWN. I see way too many pilots who want to go blasting through stuff at 5 kts below barber pole. You would be amazed how much better the ride gets at 280 kts vs 325 kts.

Always remember..there are people in the back. Try and take care of them mmmkay!
 
I think the FAA had the big level 4 and 5 cells in mind when they made the 20 nm rule. That said in a small, normally aspirated, no radar airplane keeping your distance is always a good idea.

Since I’m in a turbo prop at lower altitudes I tend to get my fair share of TS avoidance every summer. We always try to stay out of them, though I agree with Calcapt that little showery build ups usually are not a big deal. But if it looks convective I am going to try and stay out. ( I like to keep the pax not so freaked out since we are already on a turbo prop and barf bags cost money and in this economy we need to pinch every penny. . .yada yada yada . . . .. :) ) Anyway If I can tell it is at least towering cumulus I try to stay out as I have really been thoroughly beaten and really iced up at the same time in some of that stuff. (In the middle of summer no less.) Otherwise like everybody else says, using a combination of your eyes, the radar and ATC (In that order for me.) to stay out of the stuff.

There can be a lot of technique and thinking on the really heavy T-storm days. If I can’t avoid the storms, I am using a combination of the tilt and gain to see what I am about to fly through. If the gain is on low and the storm is still painting orange or red, I keep my distance as much as practical. Most cells you see are the garden variety round and oval shapes. I steer clear of them as far as practical. Every once in a while you see the half moon, sickle or hooked shapes. Things that might denote larger circulation in the storm and possible “evil” weather like tornados or just damn big cells. I really steer clear of that stuff. I have also found in the Rockies with all the dry air, when you get a hot, dry day with even small cells that paint very little on the radar, the risk of microbursts is greater. That evaporative cooling over a hot desert makes the colder air drop fast.

Enroute avoidance is usually not a big deal, just fly around the stuff, carry extra fuel and always have an out. Terminal ops and thunderstorms are the bigger concern. When a big class B or C airport has bad storms they usually are on the ball when it comes to detecting the windshear, microbursts and ultimately halting operations if needed. Storms over the uncontrolled airports get my attention even more. They require more caution and thinking since you are kind of on your own there. There is no shame in holding or diverting if it looks iffy.
 
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